If you mean the Workbee, then I'd say more like a tractor and similar derivatives like the excavator, forklift, loader and backhoe.
At what size point do you transition from being a Shuttle / Runabout / StarShip?
- Thread starter Kamen Rider Blade
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If you mean the Workbee, then I'd say more like a tractor and similar derivatives like the excavator, forklift, loader and backhoe.
Well, this is the thousand bars of gold-pressed latinum question isn't it? Were Type-7 shuttlecraft warp capable?
There's been some compelling arguments in favour of them being so in this thread but I'm thinking otherwise. I can't remember where I found it but one early reference I've seen stated they cruised at .65c and had top speed of .85c, which seems reasonable to me. There was a 1981 reference in a schematic set that gave them a maximum speed of warp 2.1. Technology marches on. Hey, maybe that's why they didn't have any shuttles in "Enemy Within", they were all being upgraded to warp capability, but after that Kirk insisted they have a few impulse drive ones back.
It's true that in "Menagerie" Kirk and Mendez give chase to the Enterprise in a shuttle. There is no way a non-warp shuttle could have caught the Enterprise. That was the point, Kirk knew this and he knew that Spock knew this. He was gambling, correctly, that Spock would turn around to rescue him when there was absolutely no other option. The real question is how good were the Enterprise sensors that they could track a small sublight craft at the distance of what must have been several light-weeks by the time Spock did a u-turn. Perhaps the Starbase was relaying data.
In "Metamorphosis" perhaps they were only needing to travel outsystem a certain distance. There might have been a delay while Commissioner Hedford was being prepped for travel by McCoy, and the good doctor might have insisted that they brought her on board the Enterprise by shuttlecraft because he didn't want that "damn-blasted gizmo scrambling her metabolism any more than it already is". Kirk sent the Enterprise to conclude business a short (by warp speeds) distance away and decided to make up time by heading out for a rendezvous when it was on the way back. Pluto is only 5-6 light-hours away from Earth, the edge of the Solar System (the Heliosphere) is about 16 light-hours away. In a small system it might not have taken that long or they didn't have to go too far out to meet the Enterprise. Since the shuttle wan't where it was perhaps Scotty was considering something like that "tachyon eddy" from the DS9 epsiode "Explorers" that might have carried the shuttle away at warp speeds.
The big problem with TOS era warp speed shuttles is the lack of a deflector (although small craft perhaps have less need for them). The bigger problem with having them as longer range craft is the a lack of a toilet! Perhaps some rudimentary facilities were present on the port side of that rear compartment (we never do get to see what's there), otherwise a few hours would be just about all you could reasonably be expected to be in a shuttle for.
I'm not sure if I like "presence of a toilet" as the defining difference between a shuttle and a runabout, but it would work.
Incidentally I note that the that the Starstation Aurora blueprints of the S.S. Aurora by Todd Guenther (just picked them up, it's my de facto TOS era Runabout now) gives it a cruising speed of Warp 1 and a maximum speed of Warp 1.6 and also states that they were generally used by Starfleet as shuttles. Which is fine for a Runabout (it does have a toilet), but since "The Way to Eden" has Dr. Sevrin trying to get to another (presumably) far off planet in it does seem to be a bit low. But then Sevrin was a loony ("...but he was a happy loony. Lucky bastard!"). Since this is now retconned into being the same sort of J-class transport as Harry Mudd's ship in "Mudd's Women" it's way too low. That Eaglemoss "Official Starships Collection" magazine gives it a maximum speed of warp 4 (presumably a cruising speed of warp 3) which fits in nicely with other old commercial ships like the Independence-class freighter and Sherman-class cargo drone. The blueprints give the Aurora standard Federation-style nacelles rather than those cobbled-together multiple-intercooler jobs seen in the unmastered original so I can accept this as the upgrade and the old engines having the stated speed.
Ultimately, as someone stated in another thread on this subject on the Trek BBS, shuttles travel as the "speed of plot". There was very little conservation of continuity operating back then.
So. Toilets. That's my recommendation.
There's been some compelling arguments in favour of them being so in this thread but I'm thinking otherwise. I can't remember where I found it but one early reference I've seen stated they cruised at .65c and had top speed of .85c, which seems reasonable to me. There was a 1981 reference in a schematic set that gave them a maximum speed of warp 2.1. Technology marches on. Hey, maybe that's why they didn't have any shuttles in "Enemy Within", they were all being upgraded to warp capability, but after that Kirk insisted they have a few impulse drive ones back.
It's true that in "Menagerie" Kirk and Mendez give chase to the Enterprise in a shuttle. There is no way a non-warp shuttle could have caught the Enterprise. That was the point, Kirk knew this and he knew that Spock knew this. He was gambling, correctly, that Spock would turn around to rescue him when there was absolutely no other option. The real question is how good were the Enterprise sensors that they could track a small sublight craft at the distance of what must have been several light-weeks by the time Spock did a u-turn. Perhaps the Starbase was relaying data.
In "Metamorphosis" perhaps they were only needing to travel outsystem a certain distance. There might have been a delay while Commissioner Hedford was being prepped for travel by McCoy, and the good doctor might have insisted that they brought her on board the Enterprise by shuttlecraft because he didn't want that "damn-blasted gizmo scrambling her metabolism any more than it already is". Kirk sent the Enterprise to conclude business a short (by warp speeds) distance away and decided to make up time by heading out for a rendezvous when it was on the way back. Pluto is only 5-6 light-hours away from Earth, the edge of the Solar System (the Heliosphere) is about 16 light-hours away. In a small system it might not have taken that long or they didn't have to go too far out to meet the Enterprise. Since the shuttle wan't where it was perhaps Scotty was considering something like that "tachyon eddy" from the DS9 epsiode "Explorers" that might have carried the shuttle away at warp speeds.
The big problem with TOS era warp speed shuttles is the lack of a deflector (although small craft perhaps have less need for them). The bigger problem with having them as longer range craft is the a lack of a toilet! Perhaps some rudimentary facilities were present on the port side of that rear compartment (we never do get to see what's there), otherwise a few hours would be just about all you could reasonably be expected to be in a shuttle for.
I'm not sure if I like "presence of a toilet" as the defining difference between a shuttle and a runabout, but it would work.
Incidentally I note that the that the Starstation Aurora blueprints of the S.S. Aurora by Todd Guenther (just picked them up, it's my de facto TOS era Runabout now) gives it a cruising speed of Warp 1 and a maximum speed of Warp 1.6 and also states that they were generally used by Starfleet as shuttles. Which is fine for a Runabout (it does have a toilet), but since "The Way to Eden" has Dr. Sevrin trying to get to another (presumably) far off planet in it does seem to be a bit low. But then Sevrin was a loony ("...but he was a happy loony. Lucky bastard!"). Since this is now retconned into being the same sort of J-class transport as Harry Mudd's ship in "Mudd's Women" it's way too low. That Eaglemoss "Official Starships Collection" magazine gives it a maximum speed of warp 4 (presumably a cruising speed of warp 3) which fits in nicely with other old commercial ships like the Independence-class freighter and Sherman-class cargo drone. The blueprints give the Aurora standard Federation-style nacelles rather than those cobbled-together multiple-intercooler jobs seen in the unmastered original so I can accept this as the upgrade and the old engines having the stated speed.
Ultimately, as someone stated in another thread on this subject on the Trek BBS, shuttles travel as the "speed of plot". There was very little conservation of continuity operating back then.
So. Toilets. That's my recommendation.
The original TNG shuttles? Well,
- we never saw them do warp
- when Q abducted Picard into one, Riker wanted to commence a search across a volume an impulse-powered craft might have covered in the elapsed time
Then again,
+ they had warp nacelles
+ some of their sorties were clearly from star to star - especially in "Identity Crisis"
This much is certain - they were to rendezvous with Scotty, after all. However, the Companion cloud moves at warp and "stays right with" the shuttle, a description that would make zero sense unless the shuttle, too, was at warp at the time.
Well, evidently most starships have no need for them, even though some ships nevertheless pack one or two.
Certain shuttles that most assuredly can do warp and indeed are seen doing warp do so without a deflector, too - say, Type 6 in VOY.
Or nowadays, for that matter. But there's nothing wrong with shuttles traveling at different speeds on different days...
Hmm. Might a diaper dispenser turn a shuttle into a runabout?
Timo Saloniemi
Bugger, sorry, mixing my shuttlecraft up. Meant to say the Type F, the TOS Galileo sort.
I think it's clear that some TNG shuttles at least have warp, think in "Samaritan Snare" Wesley and Picard are in one bound for Starbase 515. And you are right. They don't have deflector dishes any more than a Klingon D7 does (nor does the S.S. Aurora either actually). And since we're looking at the distinction between Shuttlecraft and Runabouts in the Next Gen and DS9 era, it voids the "only runabouts are warp capable hypothesis", at least for the Next Gen era.
Metamorphosis- Good point. He might have meant it matched course changes and evasive maneuvers?
The shuttle in TAS "Slaver Weapon" carrying Spock, Uhura and Sulu seemed to have been a long-range shuttle as they were carrying the stasis box to Starbase 25. This was a larger shuttle than the Type-7, a long-range shuttle perhaps?
So what's the difference between a long-range shuttle and a Runabout? A combination of size and capabilities? The Runabouts had transporters, can't recall any shuttle having a transporter (perhaps in Voyager, but they were capable with coming up with whatever shuttlecraft was needed for the plot, there must have been a damned factory on board churning the things out). The Runabouts were modular as well (like the Space 1999 Eagles).
Diaper dispenser? Well, maybe not quite so far fetched, there are things called "Travel Johns" for people caught short in a car (although why you can't just get out and have a pee I don't know, not so possible in space admittedly). Not diapers though. Can you imagine Kirk in a diaper? Or Spock?
DO NOT GOOGLE THAT! Someone, somewhere on the internet will have done it...
I think it's clear that some TNG shuttles at least have warp, think in "Samaritan Snare" Wesley and Picard are in one bound for Starbase 515. And you are right. They don't have deflector dishes any more than a Klingon D7 does (nor does the S.S. Aurora either actually). And since we're looking at the distinction between Shuttlecraft and Runabouts in the Next Gen and DS9 era, it voids the "only runabouts are warp capable hypothesis", at least for the Next Gen era.
Metamorphosis- Good point. He might have meant it matched course changes and evasive maneuvers?
The shuttle in TAS "Slaver Weapon" carrying Spock, Uhura and Sulu seemed to have been a long-range shuttle as they were carrying the stasis box to Starbase 25. This was a larger shuttle than the Type-7, a long-range shuttle perhaps?
So what's the difference between a long-range shuttle and a Runabout? A combination of size and capabilities? The Runabouts had transporters, can't recall any shuttle having a transporter (perhaps in Voyager, but they were capable with coming up with whatever shuttlecraft was needed for the plot, there must have been a damned factory on board churning the things out). The Runabouts were modular as well (like the Space 1999 Eagles).
Diaper dispenser? Well, maybe not quite so far fetched, there are things called "Travel Johns" for people caught short in a car (although why you can't just get out and have a pee I don't know, not so possible in space admittedly). Not diapers though. Can you imagine Kirk in a diaper? Or Spock?
DO NOT GOOGLE THAT! Someone, somewhere on the internet will have done it...
"Class F", supposedly. Hard to tell if "class" or "type" is more specific in Starfleet jargon. All the TNG "types" of shuttle have been of distinct design, whereas all the phaser sidearm "types" of a given number (say, type 2) across Trek history have looked completely dissimilar...
...Which is a fun example, because we can clearly see there are no warp streaks there when Wes and Jean-Luc trundle towards the starbase!
This could be argued to be part of the phenomenon where certain star systems make warp travel slower than it would be in free space. If warp isn't worth it close to the star, better have a shuttle there stuck at impulse than a whole starship...
At warp? That would be quite the trick, unless the Companion flew circles around the shuttle. A million circles per second or thereabouts!
Big enough to be a runabout by TNG terms, I guess. Things as large as an Oberth class ship have been called "shuttles in dialogue, suggesting the word is rather flexible, and not necessarily in conflict with a craft also being a runabout or a cutter or a yacht or whatever.
Yes, the VOY shuttles all seemed to have hidden transporters. In TNG, a box bolted to the ceiling of a Type 7 provided transporter services in "Best of Both Worlds" and was basically considered exceptional, that is, warranting extra dialogue.
Nothing much would establish the lack of transporters in a given craft. Perhaps the TOS shuttles had those already? But it would be easy to postulate that the tech is bulky, at least in the 23rd century, and only to be found aboard the very largest shuttles. Larger than those of the Kelvin movies, probably, as even the big barges in the 2009 movie seemed to lack them where it would have mattered.
It would have been a bit odd had there not been a factory there. The ship had replicators, after all. (Not during the first two seasons, though, as the Kazon kept the heroes from gaining friends who'd help them with repairs.)
Timo Saloniemi
That neatly rules out Voyager on the first two criteria
I think it comes down to purpose, first, then size. A runabout, like a shuttecraft, is an auxiliary craft generally with an as needed crew rather than a fixed crew complement, and in general both are meant to have short-range warp capability; although the scope of the mission, as well as the necessary accommodations are designed for longer endurance/larger crew in a runabout. To borrow Honor Harrington terms, I would peg a shuttlepod and other "pods" as "cutters"; shuttlecraft as "pinnaces" and runabouts as "light attack craft".
It's not a perfect comparison because star trek is fairly inconsistent.
that's in my headcanon as well. I've been working on my version for a while. Stuck on nacelles and landing gear.
The answer is that the shuttle was never that far behind the Enterprise despite both being at warp. What we do know are that:
1. The shuttle could not catch the Enterprise at the speed they were going at.
2. The shuttle eventually runs out of fuel and is coasting after the Enterprise with only 2 hours of oxygen left.
3. The Enterprise never turns around. All she did was reverse engines to a "stop" and when the shuttle caught up with it (which wasn't that long) the Enterprise tractors her in. This would suggest that a shuttle can have powered FTL speeds and also coast at FTL speeds. And since all the Enterprise had to do was stop for the shuttle to quickly catch up then it was never that far behind the Enterprise.
...No doubt by design, as both of the spacecraft involved were under the control of the Talosians at the time.
Is it usual for starships to depart star systems at such low warp that shuttles can tag along? SB11 seemed to be a busy place; perhaps departing at low warp is logical there? Although clearly "warping out of orbit" isn't an outright traffic violation yet.
Timo Saloniemi
Is it usual for starships to depart star systems at such low warp that shuttles can tag along? SB11 seemed to be a busy place; perhaps departing at low warp is logical there? Although clearly "warping out of orbit" isn't an outright traffic violation yet.
Timo Saloniemi
There should be a "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy on adult diapers.
I think this was the only shuttle chasing starship scenario in TOS. I doubt the Enterprise was pushing her warp engines though.
Maybe she was travelling at a more standard speed to avoid suspicion, but Talos is explicitly "6 days away at maximum warp" from Starbase 11, according to Spock so they couldn't spend too long dawdling
Wow, if we work backwards from that then how many days of warp was the shuttle at? The episode seems to suggest 2 days went by for the court martial before arriving at Talos IV. Then that leaves a minimum of 4 days of the shuttle pursuing the Enterprise at warp speed.
How time flies when you're having fun and watching Talosian movies!
How many days did Pike's original adventure take? Did we see all of it, or just the highlights that amount to a day or two at most?
...Did Kirk and his heroes see all of it, or just the highlights?
Timo Saloniemi
How many days did Pike's original adventure take? Did we see all of it, or just the highlights that amount to a day or two at most?
...Did Kirk and his heroes see all of it, or just the highlights?
Timo Saloniemi
