TOS- Overrated?

[AdmiralScreed]

I'm starting this thread in the general discussion area because I know if I start it in the TOS sub-forum I'm going to get a lot of negative responses.

Anyway, let me start out by saying that my introduction to Star Trek was TNG. I started watching it about a year and a half ago, and from the first episode of the series all the way until the end I absolutely loved it! The cast, the stories, and the production values were all terrific, and at the time I watched it I considered it to be my favorite TV series of all time. After finishing TNG I moved on to DS9 because I heard it was a very popular show. I recently finished the final season, and boy was it fantastic! I loved the way both the main cast and the guest characters were developed, the long story arcs were terrific, and the show tackled a lot of controversial issues.
After finishing DS9, I decided it might be a good idea to go back and watch the original series since that was the show that started it all.
Well, I'm about 2 dozen episodes into it, and I have to say that while it's not a bad show by any means, it is quite dull at times. The stories, while they may have been groundbreaking in the 60's, are really simplistic if you compare them to the stories we got in TNG and DS9. Simple isn't necessarily bad, but I like to think when I watch TV, and so far this show hasn't forced me to do a lot of thinking. I also think that the cast is pretty lifeless. I like Spock, and McCoy to a lesser extent, but Kirk is nowhere near as interesting of a character as Picard (or for that matter, most of the characters on DS9). The rest of the cast hardly do anything except sit at their stations and speak up occasionally when something is wrong. With the exception of the 3 main characters, I don't feel like there's any chemistry between the cast members. On top of that, the guest stars can't act and the production values are terrible.

Is there anyone else that feels the same way as I do? Despite my criticisms, I am not calling TOS a bad show. All I am saying is that it's decent, but nothing more. I keep watching it and hoping that it will get better, but so far nothing has changed.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Sometimes it tends to fall along generational lines. Quite a few people who grew up with the later Star Trek shows can't understand the appeal of the original or simply can't see past the fact that it was made in 1966.

 

[YARN]

I'm starting this thread in the general discussion area because I know if I start it in the TOS sub-forum I'm going to get a lot of negative responses.

Anyway, let me start out by saying that my introduction to Star Trek was TNG. I started watching it about a year and a half ago, and from the first episode of the series all the way until the end I absolutely loved it! The cast, the stories, and the production values were all terrific, and at the time I watched it I considered it to be my favorite TV series of all time. After finishing TNG I moved on to DS9 because I heard it was a very popular show. I recently finished the final season, and boy was it fantastic! I loved the way both the main cast and the guest characters were developed, the long story arcs were terrific, and the show tackled a lot of controversial issues.
After finishing DS9, I decided it might be a good idea to go back and watch the original series since that was the show that started it all.
Well, I'm about 2 dozen episodes into it, and I have to say that while it's not a bad show by any means, it is quite dull at times. The stories, while they may have been groundbreaking in the 60's, are really simplistic if you compare them to the stories we got in TNG and DS9. Simple isn't necessarily bad, but I like to think when I watch TV, and so far this show hasn't forced me to do a lot of thinking. I also think that the cast is pretty lifeless. I like Spock, and McCoy to a lesser extent, but Kirk is nowhere near as interesting of a character as Picard (or for that matter, most of the characters on DS9). The rest of the cast hardly do anything except sit at their stations and speak up occasionally when something is wrong. With the exception of the 3 main characters, I don't feel like there's any chemistry between the cast members. On top of that, the guest stars can't act and the production values are terrible.

Is there anyone else that feels the same way as I do? Despite my criticisms, I am not calling TOS a bad show. All I am saying is that it's decent, but nothing more. I keep watching it and hoping that it will get better, but so far nothing has changed.

And here we go...

 

[Relayer1]

Nah, the series is of its time and my opinion is undoubtedly influenced by the films, but it's good.

More recent it may be, but in many ways TNG is as dated now. Voyager was just poor and Enterprise is still too recent to judge how it will age.

Which just leaves DS9, which still stands up...

 

[AdmiralScreed]

And here we go...

Care to add anything to the discussion?

 

[AdmiralScreed]

Nah, the series is of its time and my opinion is undoubtedly influenced by the films, but it's good.

More recent it may be, but in many ways TNG is as dated now. Voyager was just poor and Enterprise is still too recent to judge how it will age.

Which just leaves DS9, which still stands up...

I should add that I have also watched the films, and I enjoyed them all quite a bit, my two favorites being TUC and TVH. Obviously the production values were far superior, and I thought the writing was also improved, but more importantly than that I thought the characters were much relatable in the films (whereas they were kind of stiff in the TV show). I think that better direction, better scripting, and the actor's gain in experience from the 60's to the 80's all contributed to this.

 

[RandyS]

I don't think it's overrated. It's the original. It's only natural that it would be the standard by which the others are held up. Is it my favorite? No. It's my second favorite behind TNG and DS9.

But I still really enjoy TOS.

 

[AdmiralScreed]

I acknowledge that TOS set the standard for the later shows, but frankly I think that TNG and DS9 outdid TOS in pretty much every way possible (writing, acting, production values, music, etc.). I can appreciate TOS for its significance and importance in the realm of science fiction. The sad truth, though, is that many shows since TOS have taken it's ideas and done much more and much better things with them. (i.e. TNG). While TOS may have been one of the greatest sci fi shows of all time when it first aired in the 60's, I just don't think it can compare to a lot of the sci fi shows that we've gotten since TNG. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with liking and enjoying it. For people who grew up with TOS, I am sure you are very nostalgic for it, and that's great! Nothing wrong with that. I'm just curious to see if other ST fans feel the same way as I do.

 

[Kelso]

Go back in time and watch it when you were ten.

 

[horatio83]

I'm starting this thread in the general discussion area because I know if I start it in the TOS sub-forum I'm going to get a lot of negative responses.

Anyway, let me start out by saying that my introduction to Star Trek was TNG. I started watching it about a year and a half ago, and from the first episode of the series all the way until the end I absolutely loved it! The cast, the stories, and the production values were all terrific, and at the time I watched it I considered it to be my favorite TV series of all time. After finishing TNG I moved on to DS9 because I heard it was a very popular show. I recently finished the final season, and boy was it fantastic! I loved the way both the main cast and the guest characters were developed, the long story arcs were terrific, and the show tackled a lot of controversial issues.
After finishing DS9, I decided it might be a good idea to go back and watch the original series since that was the show that started it all.
Well, I'm about 2 dozen episodes into it, and I have to say that while it's not a bad show by any means, it is quite dull at times. The stories, while they may have been groundbreaking in the 60's, are really simplistic if you compare them to the stories we got in TNG and DS9. Simple isn't necessarily bad, but I like to think when I watch TV, and so far this show hasn't forced me to do a lot of thinking. I also think that the cast is pretty lifeless. I like Spock, and McCoy to a lesser extent, but Kirk is nowhere near as interesting of a character as Picard (or for that matter, most of the characters on DS9). The rest of the cast hardly do anything except sit at their stations and speak up occasionally when something is wrong. With the exception of the 3 main characters, I don't feel like there's any chemistry between the cast members. On top of that, the guest stars can't act and the production values are terrible.

Is there anyone else that feels the same way as I do? Despite my criticisms, I am not calling TOS a bad show. All I am saying is that it's decent, but nothing more. I keep watching it and hoping that it will get better, but so far nothing has changed.

I wouldn't go as far as you but among the five series TOS has the smallest ratio of good to mediocre and mediocre to bad episodes.

 

[sonak]

Short response: No.


Longer response: This is a fairly typical response by people who don't appreciate the foundation that has been laid by past works.

TOS set the mold. Some of it may seem cheesy now, but it was a product of its time and was limited by budget realities and network censorship realities.

It was groundbreaking sci-fi often written by folks with a background in the field.

It's the BEST of the Trek series. The one with the purest sense of adventure.

The Kirk, Spock, McCoy relationship is still the coolest one that Trek has had.

It created most of the stuff you like about Star Trek

 

[Gary7]

Short response: No.


Longer response: This is a fairly typical response by people who don't appreciate the foundation that has been laid by past works.

TOS set the mold. Some of it may seem cheesy now, but it was a product of its time and was limited by budget realities and network censorship realities.

It was groundbreaking sci-fi often written by folks with a background in the field.

It's the BEST of the Trek series. The one with the purest sense of adventure.

The Kirk, Spock, McCoy relationship is still the coolest one that Trek has had.

It created most of the stuff you like about Star Trek

Very well said, sonak.

True, the production values are much better in TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT. But you can't hold that against it... it was the ground breaking series that defined the whole franchise. Their context was completely different, being no real established sci-fi audience at the time and budgets that might have been elaborate in those days but were constraining for what the series was trying to do.

So yes, point-blank the series has some inferior production values. And yes, the speaking extras didn't have a lot to say. But you really MUST frame TOS in the era it was made and all it was up against. When you do that, you can truly appreciate it for what it was.

Simple stories? Well of course the first few can't get all that complicated, otherwise it would have driven away the audience. But later on, they get much more involved and reflect a lot of significant challenges that human beings have faced across the centuries.

TOS is special. It stands alone, a great work as it is. Those who can't see this are simply too close minded.

 

[AdmiralScreed]

This is a fairly typical response by people who don't appreciate the foundation that has been laid by past works.

As I said in my previous post, I appreciate TOS from a historical perspective. It started the franchise and led to 4 more ST shows as well as 11 movies. That's pretty significant, but it doesn't mean that the sequels can't be superior.

It created most of the stuff you like about Star Trek

Sort of. TOS introduced a lot of the things I like about Trek (Starfleet, Romulans, Klingons, encountering new lifeforms, and the moral of the week), but TNG took all of these elements and made them even better, IMO.
DS9 was the most original of the sequel shows. It did borrow some elements from TOS, but it was based on a space station, had recurring guest characters, featured lots of character development, had long story arcs, and in general it was darker than the ST shows that came before. It was very different from TOS, at least the way I saw it.

 

[sonak]

This is a fairly typical response by people who don't appreciate the foundation that has been laid by past works.

As I said in my previous post, I appreciate TOS from a historical perspective. It started the franchise and led to 4 more ST shows as well as 11 movies. That's pretty significant, but it doesn't mean that the sequels can't be superior.

It created most of the stuff you like about Star Trek

Sort of. TOS introduced a lot of the things I like about Trek (Starfleet, Romulans, Klingons, encountering new lifeforms, and the moral of the week), but TNG took all of these elements and made them even better, IMO.
DS9 was the most original of the sequel shows. It did borrow some elements from TOS, but it was based on a space station, had recurring guest characters, featured lots of character development, had long story arcs, and in general it was darker than the ST shows that came before. It was very different from TOS, at least the way I saw it.

DS9 is a great show. I wasn't crazy about the Dominion War arc over the last two seasons, but it's a great show.

Some of your criticisms really surprise me. Far from finding TOS "slow" I think it's much faster-paced and less soap opera-esque than TNG got at times("Cost of Living," "Lessons," "In Theory," etc.)

 

[AdmiralScreed]

TOS is special. It stands alone, a great work as it is. Those who can't see this are simply too close minded.

No need to be condescending. Not everyone is going to share your tastes. As I stated several times already, I appreciate TOS for its innovation, but just because I appreciate it does not mean I need to enjoy it.

And I did mention that the production values were terrible, but I'm not holding that against TOS because it was a low budget show made in the 60's. Poorly made sets, costumes, and visual effects really don't bother me, just as long as the stories are well written and the characters are interesting and relatable. Unfortunately, that's one of the areas that TOS is somewhat lacking in. The City on the Edge of Forever can't compare to the Inner Light, Tapestry, or Family from TNG (or a lot of other episodes, for that matter).

I hope people aren't taking my criticisms of TOS personally. As I've said before, I think it's a decent show. In fact, there are several episodes I enjoy quite a bit; Amok Time, the Trouble with Tribbles, The Doomsday Machine, and Journey to Babel (since my first post I have skipped around season 2 to try and watch some of the more popular episodes, and I was pleasantly surprised by a few )

 

[sonak]

TOS is special. It stands alone, a great work as it is. Those who can't see this are simply too close minded.

No need to be condescending. Not everyone is going to share your tastes. As I stated several times already, I appreciate TOS for its innovation, but just because I appreciate it does not mean I need to enjoy it.

And I did mention that the production values were terrible, but I'm not holding that against TOS because it was a low budget show made in the 60's. Poorly made sets, costumes, and visual effects really don't bother me, just as long as the stories are well written and the characters are interesting and relatable. Unfortunately, that's one of the areas that TOS is somewhat lacking in. The City on the Edge of Forever can't compare to the Inner Light, Tapestry, or Family from TNG (or a lot of other episodes, for that matter).

I hope people aren't taking my criticisms of TOS personally. As I've said before, I think it's a decent show. In fact, there are several episodes I enjoy quite a bit; Amok Time, the Trouble with Tribbles, The Doomsday Machine, and Journey to Babel (since my first post I have skipped around season 2 to try and watch some of the more popular episodes, and I was pleasantly surprised by a few )

You like "Family" better than "The City on the Edge of Forever?"

Do you prefer "Masks" to "Duet?"

Do you prefer "dude where's my car?" to "citizen kane?"


do you prefer Stephen King to Herman Melville?


Do you prefer....

 

[AdmiralScreed]

This is a fairly typical response by people who don't appreciate the foundation that has been laid by past works.

As I said in my previous post, I appreciate TOS from a historical perspective. It started the franchise and led to 4 more ST shows as well as 11 movies. That's pretty significant, but it doesn't mean that the sequels can't be superior.

It created most of the stuff you like about Star Trek

Sort of. TOS introduced a lot of the things I like about Trek (Starfleet, Romulans, Klingons, encountering new lifeforms, and the moral of the week), but TNG took all of these elements and made them even better, IMO.
DS9 was the most original of the sequel shows. It did borrow some elements from TOS, but it was based on a space station, had recurring guest characters, featured lots of character development, had long story arcs, and in general it was darker than the ST shows that came before. It was very different from TOS, at least the way I saw it.

DS9 is a great show. I wasn't crazy about the Dominion War arc over the last two seasons, but it's a great show.

Some of your criticisms really surprise me. Far from finding TOS "slow" I think it's much faster-paced and less soap opera-esque than TNG got at times("Cost of Living," "Lessons," "In Theory," etc.)

Hahaha, some of my criticisms surprise me too! I loved TMP, and that's probably a lot slower paced than most episodes of TOS.
But in all seriousness, I don't mind slow pacing as long as the plot is weighty enough to support the entire episode. In other words, I feel like some of the TOS plots would have been more appropriate for a 25 minute episode rather than a 50 minute episode.
And as for all the soap opera, I really don't mind all of it. In fact, some of the TNG episodes you mentioned are episodes I really enjoy ("Lessons" in particular). I like soap opera episodes if they're well written and well acted.

 

[AdmiralScreed]

TOS is special. It stands alone, a great work as it is. Those who can't see this are simply too close minded.

No need to be condescending. Not everyone is going to share your tastes. As I stated several times already, I appreciate TOS for its innovation, but just because I appreciate it does not mean I need to enjoy it.

And I did mention that the production values were terrible, but I'm not holding that against TOS because it was a low budget show made in the 60's. Poorly made sets, costumes, and visual effects really don't bother me, just as long as the stories are well written and the characters are interesting and relatable. Unfortunately, that's one of the areas that TOS is somewhat lacking in. The City on the Edge of Forever can't compare to the Inner Light, Tapestry, or Family from TNG (or a lot of other episodes, for that matter).

I hope people aren't taking my criticisms of TOS personally. As I've said before, I think it's a decent show. In fact, there are several episodes I enjoy quite a bit; Amok Time, the Trouble with Tribbles, The Doomsday Machine, and Journey to Babel (since my first post I have skipped around season 2 to try and watch some of the more popular episodes, and I was pleasantly surprised by a few )

You like "Family" better than "The City on the Edge of Forever?"

Do you prefer "Masks" to "Duet?"

Do you prefer "dude where's my car?" to "citizen kane?"


do you prefer Stephen King to Herman Melville?


Do you prefer....

Masks was the only TNG episode I ever fell asleep watching. Duet, while not my favorite episode of DS9, is very, very good, and it is my second favorite episode of DS9 season one.

Do you like my Trek credentials now?

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

TOS is by far my favorite of the Trek series. It manages to be the least pretentious of the shows - of course, all things are relative.

 

[plynch]

I love TOS, but I understand your viewpoint. Were I new to the whole ball of wax I might feel the same way.

In its day, it was some of the most thoughtful television on the air. Hence its big following among college kids and high school nerd (lovingly meant) then.

Trying to be objective, TOS has a verve and energy that TNG lacks by design (GR's idea that the crew all get along). Later Trek has deliberately more complex stories (A/B plots) with more character development, I'll give ya that.

But many people feel as you, so I don't know if I'd really call TOS over-rated these days. Well-loved, for sure.