Ambassador Class Variations

[yotsuya]

Think about the timing. The models were not kept at Paramount. Excelsior was sitting at ILM when not being used. I'm not sure where the Movie Refit was stored, but they film the episode (Peak Performance) intending to use a Constitution Class ship and then for some reason they don't? Was it just because they didn't want to film the 1701-A or was it because they couldn't film the 1701-A like they planned and needed another ship? At that point they had the Stargazer model so it would be equally easy to change the registry on either one. They are just decals, but if they were told no on the 1701-A, they would have to change plans and use the Stargazer model. It fits logically which is why I tend to believe it. I've learned a lot about the models when they were not in use that makes a lot of sense about why they kept going back to the old standards. I'm not sure why the Constellation or Ambassador classes were not used more once they had the models. Probably because so much could be done with stock footage of the other three models (Excelsior, Miranda, and Oberth).

Anyway, I know better than to get into an argument with our dear Dukhat. He has some great information, but nothing posted so far has proven that the 1701-A was unavailable for filming is not accurate. Although that could also be because of the various incidents that that model went through between films and after TUC. It wasn't often in any shape to be filmed unless it was full restored, which would have been outside the TV budget. Between TVH and TFF it was half painted gray. Between TFF and TUC it was partially painted white and the wiring harness was cut. After TUC it went to the Smithsonian and was on display with the TOS Enterprise (and both Klingon Battlecruisers and the TOS shuttlecraft). So it may not be because they wouldn't allow it, but it was in no shape to be filmed or unavailable for filming. It was loaned out for some strange reasons and my understanding is that it was supposed to be returned intact and was not. So the exact situation is not certain, but it is certain that for all the times TNG intended to use it, they never did. And from the dates, Peak Performance was likely victim of the model being occupied at the FX house for TFF (or not yet returned). So I think the TNG production truly intended to use it, but they weren't able to and found another solution. It is too bad they didn't refit the Star Trek III burned up 1701 for filming. It probably would have been fairly easy and given a good enough model for Television.

 

[Dukhat]

Um, the fact that Geordi stated that the Stargazer was a Constitution class ship is evidence right there that the producers were planning on filming the Enterprise-A for ‘The Battle.’ And I never said the TMP Enterprise was going to be used for ‘Peak Performance.’ I never even brought up that episode. They already had the Stargazer model by then to relabel as the Hathaway. Are you confusing the two episodes?

Greg Jein took it upon himself to quickly and under-budget build a new ship for the Stargazer to have it ready in time for the post-production VFX shots for ‘The Battle.’ He borrowed Sternbach’s yellow desktop model as reference (which is why it’s not in the episode, being replaced by a TMP Enterprise model.) Once they filmed the new model, they had to go back and redub Levar Burton’s line to change it to ‘Constellation’ because that word fit almost seamlessly over his original line.

All of this info is common knowledge and can easily be found online.

 

[yotsuya]

No, it was supposed to be a Constitution Class in Peak Performance. I think that time they avoided mentioning the class. My guess is that either the movie production did not want the Enterprise relabeled as they were in pre-production Star Trek V or it was not available for The Battle for other reasons. I don't think it had anything to do with any aspect of the model itself.

And to be blunt, having Picard command a Constitution Class ship was a bit silly. The Hathaway being Constitution Class made more sense because it had been abandoned for a long time. But both ended up being Constellation Class instead.

I personally find it fantastic that these two namesakes had to be swapped. They were two of the first ships in the US Navy when it was restarted by Washington. All three of those first ships served the US Navy for over 60 years. Only Constitution survived past the Civil War. So the Stargazer in service for 60 years (the 80 of Hathaway minus being abandoned for 20 years) is appropriate.

 

[Unicron]

I haven't seen any official reference to the Hathaway being intended to be a reuse of the Constitution model, as AFAIK that was only the initial intent with "The Battle" before it was decided to use the Constellation class model instead. As Dukhat says, Geordie's line was redubbed and "Peak Performance" also had the advantage of reusing shots from "The Battle" to shorten production time. In addition to having a "newer" ship model already available.

Is there a specific reference to the Hathaway being something other a Constellation at some point? I'm genuinely curious because if so, Memory Alpha doesn't mention such a possibility. The relabeling of the Stargazer into the Hathaway for PP was the only time the name was visibly changed, as the other uses of the model weren't thought to require it. The model was reused as the Victory in "Elementary Dear Data" but at an angle where the name wasn't visible, and the final use (as part of Picard's blockade fleet in "Redemption") still had the Hathaway name but again not very visible.

 

[Dukhat]

No, it was supposed to be a Constitution Class in Peak Performance. I think that time they avoided mentioning the class. My guess is that either the movie production did not want the Enterprise relabeled as they were in pre-production Star Trek V or it was not available for The Battle for other reasons. I don't think it had anything to do with any aspect of the model itself.

I have never heard that the ship in Peak Performance was supposed to be the Enterprise-A model. Why would they have done that when they now had the Stargazer model to utilize (not to mention stock footage from The Battle)? Do you have a source for that?

The fact that they already created bridge displays with the Constellation class side view in pre-production also seems to negate the idea that they were going to use the Enterprise-A for the Hathaway:

https://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/s2/2x21/peakperformance086.jpg

And I'm not sure why you still seem to think that they weren't going to use the Enterprise-A in The Battle when evidence has been shown to be otherwise. I think you have your episodes reversed. From Memory Alpha's article for The Battle:

• The Stargazer was originally a Constitution-class starship and would have reused the refit USS Enterprise model from the first four Star Trek films. However, it was decided after the episode was filmed to change it from a "Constitution-class" starship to the similar sounding "Constellation-class" cruiser. This was so that when LeVar Burton dubbed over the line, the new dialogue would closely match his lip movements on screen. Wesley Crusher says the ship class when making his announcement on the bridge; his lips also appear to say "Constitution". Data also mentions the ship's class by name when reading from the dedication plaque, but his back is turned to the camera; when he says "Constellation" the closed captions say "Constitution." (Star Trek: The Next Generation Companion (? ed., p. ?)) This can also be confirmed as Picard's Constellation-class starship model in his ready room changes to a silver Constitution-class starship model in this episode and the following episode "Hide and Q".

The model was reused as the Victory in "Elementary Dear Data" but at an angle where the name wasn't visible...

The Victory was just stock footage of the Stargazer. That's why we only see the ship from far away. It was to hide the name, but also to hide the battle damage the model had, since the Victory presumably should have been in more pristine of a shape.

 

[yotsuya]

To be honest, I have no idea where or when I heard that tidbit. I've been absorbing these things since the series was announced. But there is logic to back it up. The Stargazer was supposed to a more contemporary ship, but in line with the Constitution Refit. The Hathaway was 80 years old (I'm always one to take such numbers as inexact) which makes it contemporary to the 1701 (2285). Yet we find the Constellation still with the NX prefix in 2293. To me this means the episode was writing intending it to be an older ship. But for that production the model was definitely not available (or in any shape to be used since half of it was painted gray until they fixed it for TFF) so they likely changed it before production. But the episode feels like it was supposed to be a Constitution Class. A Miranda class would have fit better and for us to see more Constellation Class ships in later episodes. But that is not what we got.

So where I picked it up and how accurate it is is debatable. I have been known to mis-remember things, but this memory is particularly strong. I think it was from someone on the production in an interview. But I could be mistaken. Still, I will argue that the story is logically written for an older ship than a Constellation Class. That class is contemporary with the Excelsior and should have appeared more often than the Miranda or Oberth classes. Same for the Ambassador Class. We should have seen a lot more of it than we did.

But then, when you look at the plains of the US Air Corps/Air Force, you find some planes that lasted a very long time and others that didn't. some plans went through many different versions and some had very few. The B-29/B-50 served for a long time with a few still around long after the rest were gone. The B-52 has had quite a few versions, but it hasn't been made in a very long time and they keep the old ones around for parts to keep the fleet going. The F-4 was used worldwide by many air forces and had a huge number manufactured. While the B-1 and B-2 had very few. The SR-71 was the best of the best when it was new and served for 30 years and then it was done and relegated to museums. So we can imagine Starfleet, which seems to do things somewhere between what navies and air forces do as far as vehicles are concered. So perhaps the Miranda and Excelsior are like the F-4 and B-52 - durable and easy to keep in service and the Ambassador is more like the SR-71 - elite but not so easy to maintain in the long term. While the Constellation Class was somewhere in the middle.

 

[Dukhat]

Based on the preproduction artwork for the bridge displays, I’m almost 100% positive they always intended for the Hathaway to be a reuse of the Stargazer. They had the model for over a year by that time, and it was far easier to film than the unwieldy TMP Enterprise, so I logically can’t see any reason why they would use the latter ship for the episode. Plus, they had all the stock footage from The Battle to use. And it’s not the scriptwriter’s job to determine which studio model to use for any given scene, it’s the VFX department. If the script said the ship was 80 years old, then they could have potentially used any of the movie models. But the Stargazer was their newest acquisition, the studio had paid a lot of money for it, and it was contemporary to the TMP era, so it doesn’t take huge leaps in logic to assume it was the intended choice.

BTW, I apologize if I’m veering off your original thread topic about the Ambassador class. I’m fine tabling this discussion.

 

[publiusr]

Now, the Ambassador of the Ready Room had its own look.

Now, some of you may remember the old GEC Logbook…and an article called “The First and Second Enterprise-C” by Jeff Robb.

He made lovely drawings that also deserve to be remembered. A colorized version is here:

https://www.treknology.org/history3.htm

Scroll down to the Council class.

It is closest to the Ready Room depiction in its lines…and far and away among the best fan drawings I have ever seen.

Rick’s drawings have the saucer a bit more svelte that the model…which had wide and narrow shuttlebays as I recall, and an Excelsior class anterior bay glued up under the fan-tail as the biggest differences. The new ship from PICARD looks like a post-Nemesis refit of an Ambassador as well.

 

[yotsuya]

Based on the preproduction artwork for the bridge displays, I’m almost 100% positive they always intended for the Hathaway to be a reuse of the Stargazer. They had the model for over a year by that time, and it was far easier to film than the unwieldy TMP Enterprise, so I logically can’t see any reason why they would use the latter ship for the episode. Plus, they had all the stock footage from The Battle to use. And it’s not the scriptwriter’s job to determine which studio model to use for any given scene, it’s the VFX department. If the script said the ship was 80 years old, then they could have potentially used any of the movie models. But the Stargazer was their newest acquisition, the studio had paid a lot of money for it, and it was contemporary to the TMP era, so it doesn’t take huge leaps in logic to assume it was the intended choice.

BTW, I apologize if I’m veering off your original thread topic about the Ambassador class. I’m fine tabling this discussion.

No apology needed. My ability to work on anything associated with this is likely to be slow and the discussion is interesting.

And I'm sure by the time they went into production on the episode (artwork, costumes, sets, etc.) that it had been changed to the Constellation. But I feel the script was written for the Constitution class and they had started working on that. Think about it, there is plenty of stock footage of that model that does not show the registry. So that logic doesn't exactly hold up.

But the state of the model and how it happened connects back to The Battle. The 1701-A was on loan or tour and something happened then or after it was returned where the model was painted gray on one side. The sources have never said whether it was deliberate or accidental. And as they likely were uncovering this about the time Peak Performance was in production, these events likely happened well before that. So it gives an indication that the model was not available to use for The Battle. Which makes sense in light of the production which used Constitution Class up to a certain point. I can imagine the FX team asking for waiting for a response. Either they heard back that they couldn't use it or decided they couldn't risk waiting. Either way they took the model in Picard's office and build the Stargazer studio model and designated it Constellation Class which led to 3 redubbed lines.

And even though Greg Jein kept the Ent C studio model and made a replacement, it seems to have been available for any production. It was used a few times but then never again. That is still a mystery to me. I know the model was damaged, but considering Greg Jein's dedication to the franchise, I don't see how that would prevent it being repaired and used. It was not hard to make it presentable for auction. For some reason they just didn't want to use either the Ambassador or Constellation. Which is too bad because they are excellent designs and fantastic models.

 

[Dukhat]

I guess we’ll agree to disagree. I simply can’t see any logical reason why they would be utilizing the TMP Enterprise model by the time of ‘Peak Performance.’ They already used the Grissom model for the Tsiolkovsky in season 1 and the Reliant model as the Lantree earlier in season 2, both models of which were far easier to film than the Enterprise-A. Once they got a new filming model with the Stargazer, it completely fit the bill for how the Hathaway was described in the episode. Plus the fact that when PP was being filmed, Bran Ferren Associates was in possession of the Enterprise-A filming model for STV, so it wouldn’t have been available for use in TNG.

As for the Ambassador class model, I think it simply got lost in the shuffle. Once it was damaged and crated up, it was forgotten in the midst of Jein building all the other new filming models such as the 4 foot Enterprise-D, the second Romulan Warbird, the Nebula, the Vor’cha, the Defiant, the Excelsior for VOY’s ‘Flashback,’ the NCC-1701 and the D7 for ‘Trials & Tribbleations,’ etc., not to mention the transition from physical models to CGI. It’s a shame because the model looked great, and even if all they did was uncrate it to scan into a CGI model and then recrate it again, that would have been far better than seeing all those old Excelsiors and Mirandas in DS9 simply because those physical models were more readily available to scan into CGI.

 

[Unicron]

And in the Lantree's case, the rollbar got removed because they were having technical difficulties with the model. Originally it would have been a stock Miranda. But the lighting on the rollbar wasn't working properly and couldn't be fixed within the timeframe that they had to shoot for "Unnatural Selection", so they just took it off.

 

[yotsuya]

And in the Lantree's case, the rollbar got removed because they were having technical difficulties with the model. Originally it would have been a stock Miranda. But the lighting on the rollbar wasn't working properly and couldn't be fixed within the timeframe that they had to shoot for "Unnatural Selection", so they just took it off.

And so began the long line of Miranda variants.

 

[publiusr]

AMT made the first Reliant saucer too thin. I like to think of that as Miranda…with Reliant then Constellation thickening as a way of simplification

 

[Dukhat]

And so began the long line of Miranda variants.

1. Original Reliant
2. Lantree variant
3. Soyuz class Bozeman
4. DS9 Saratoga variant
5. DS9 Trial variant
6. Four nacelled variant
7. Bradford variant
8. Antares variant
9. Merced class Trieste variant
10. DS9 CGI variant

(Four of those, however, weren't seen on screen.)

There’s also the Reliant concept with the nacelles on top instead of underneath, of which Eaglemoss has made a model.

AMT made the first Reliant saucer too thin. I like to think of that as Miranda…with Reliant then Constellation thickening as a way of simplification

Round 2 fixed the thin saucer issue. Unfortunately that version is almost impossible to find.

 

[jackoverfull]

6. Four nacelled variant

never seen this one!

 

[publiusr]

I’m surprised no one did a Constellation version out of two of them. Talk about deck space!

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

The "Bradford" variant (had to be meant for background only), never used.


The "Trieste" (possibly another one of the DS9 variants, also never used.


Shapeways has a 4 nacelle variant, but I don't see a reference on exastris, so not sure if an "official" one was ever built.

 

[Dukhat]

The four nacelled Miranda was a bronze-painted model most likely built as a desktop model for set dressing. Its rollbar is also on backwards like the ‘Trial.’ I’ve yet to locate it in an episode.

http://startrekpropcollector.com/trekauctions/item.pl?i=0191

This guy over at The RPF is building replicas of the Bradford, Antares and Trieste:

https://www.therpf.com/forums/threads/u-s-s-bradford-ds9.337515/

https://www.therpf.com/forums/threads/u-s-s-litvyak-antares-class.341946/

https://www.therpf.com/forums/threads/u-s-s-trieste-ds9-kitbash.342741/

 

[yotsuya]

I completed my draft of the profile views of the 3 variants of the Ambassador Class. The Ambassador herself would have been the top one. With how Ent B was done on the profile wall, I would say the in universe explanation is that the artist didn't do very good research. Ent B was an Excelsior Class so they did the Excelsior and the Ent C was an Ambassador Class so they did the Ambassador. So I consider Ent B and Ent C to exist as we saw them while their images were of the first of the class due to artist error. So the Ent C was done as 1720' when it was actually the shorter 1570' And the Zhukov/Excalibur/Yamaguchi variant is closer to 1527' (shorter than the Excelsior Class). For that one I assumed that the parts were cast from the same molds as the Enterprise C and just assembeled in a closer configuration. I used the photos to align the warp nacelles to the saucer and the secondary hull to the saucer. It is the tallest of the versions. All three in this image would be the same width. The only changes to the NX saucer are the top and bottom phasers which are here a complete ring instead of 3 or 5 segments and the impulse engine being on the saucer rather than on the dorsal.

 

[jackoverfull]

completed my draft of the profile views of the 3 variants of the Ambassador Class. The Ambassador herself would have been the top one. With how Ent B was done on the profile wall, I would say the in universe explanation is that the artist didn't do very good research. Ent B was an Excelsior Class so they did the Excelsior and the Ent C was an Ambassador Class so they did the Ambassador. So I consider Ent B and Ent C to exist as we saw them while their images were of the first of the class due to artist error. So the Ent C was done as 1720' when it was actually the shorter 1570' And the

i like your approach: it’s a workable in-universe explanation.