your PALE MOONLIGHT

[ProtoAvatar]

WHAT would you have done, Withers?

Were it me, Firstly, I wouldn't have kidded myself that contracting Garak was going to lead to anything but what it did. So, until I was ready to take it to that level, he wouldn't have been involved.

Secondly, the argument Sisko left out in his hypothetical conversation with the Romulans (for which Dax was the stand-in) was that the Romulans had reason to fear the Dominion. Not did the Tal'Shiar preemptively attack the Founders but the Romulans themselves showed up to fight the Dominion in Inferno's Light in a knee-jerk reaction. The non-aggression pact was only in place so the Founders could wipe out the Klingons and Federation then they would go for the Romulans who had not only presented themselves as a threat but would in that scenario then be isolated.

Any reasonable power would realize it would be suicide to try to stand alone.

Third, I would have asked Spock how the reunification effort was going and if there was any diplomatic avenue that could be explored there in order to bring the Romulans on board.

Forth, if none of that worked, my final step before ultimately doing something similar to what Sisko did would be to send Odo on a mission to Cardassia. He knew the planet as well as Garak did and probably had more up-to-date contacts. That's not to mention he could blend in a lot easier by impersonating either the Female Changeling or some other high ranking official who would have access to any potential plans The Founders had against the Romulans.

If no plans were discovered and all else had failed... I would consider doing what Sisko did and I might ultimately come to that conclusion myself. I understand he was under a time constraint with the Senators visit but if you're going to take it upon yourself to break the law "for the greater good" you must be certain you have exhausted all other avenues otherwise... your actions, regardless of their intent or outcome, are just... criminal.

-Withers-​

The Romulan Star Empire KNEW its Tal'Shiar tried to kill the founders, KNEW they'll be surrounded when the Federation fell.
None of this was unknown or new, and none changed its position: the romulans still didn't enter the war. They were not reasonable, they were delusional, arrogant? YES! But their decision was standing - Vreenak made it clear.

Spock? Do you actually think the Federation didn't try it? Do you think Spock didn't try it?

Odo? A mission to Cardassia was suicide - this was stated clearly in the episode. Garack's Obsidian Order contacts were killed within a day of contact! You think Odo's lower lovel (YES, lower level - Odo was NEVER an Obsidian Order INSIDER) contacts woudn't fare the same?

That's why Sisko produced the 'plans'.

THE EPISODE MADE IT CLEAR - THERE WERE NO OTHER OPTIONS. Certainly not this kind of tactical half-measures you would expect to resolve the crisis in your run of the mill Voyager episode.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

It's unrealistic to ask me to determine what choices Sisko might have had when I don't have access to the knowledge or resources that Sisko did. Among other things, I can't assemble my senior staff or go to my superiors.

As I said - you are evading the Kobayashi Maru test because you know you can't win.
You are evading my question:
"What truth, what morality can be found in these choices? "

And in order to do it, you are using rhetoric with NO BASE - THE EPISODE MADE CLEAR THAT SISKO HAD NO OTHER CHOICE - his resources and knowledge provided none.
That's what makes DS9 so different from the politically correct TNG or Voyager.

I disagree with your analysis of Section 31's motives, as I indicated above. While I suspect I would find many of their actions abhorrent, I don't believe they take them 'for kicks' either. I suspect the intention behind their creation was always to show the harm of thinking, "the ends justify the means."

What you can't disagree with is the fact that S31 made its 'hard choices' when they were not needed.
On the contrary, Sisko make his choice when there was no other option, in desperation.

 

[Withers]

The Romulan Star Empire KNEW its Tal'Shiar tried to kill the founders, KNEW they'll be surrounded when the Federation fell.
None of this was unknown or new, and none changed its position: the romulans still didn't enter the war. They were not reasonable, they were delusional, arrogant? YES! But their decision was standing - Vreenak made it clear.

Vreenak was just one senator. He wasn't their entire delegation. There were elements of the Empire that would have been more receptive (we know because we met them later.) I'm not saying it would have worked I'm just saying there were elements of the argument that weren't stressed or mentioned.

Spock? Do you actually think the Federation didn't try it? Do you think Spock didn't try it?

Well, we'll never know, will we? We know Sisko didn't go that route at the very least.

Odo? A mission to Cardassia was suicide - this was stated clearly in the episode. Garack's Obsidian Order contacts were killed within a day of contact! You think Odo's lower lovel (YES, lower level - Odo was NEVER an Obsidian Order INSIDER) contacts woudn't fare the same?

A mission for Garak would have been suicide. A mission for Odo wasn't out of the question. He was a changeling. He could have done it. And I think with the right amount of reconnaissance it could have been successful.

THE EPISODE MADE IT CLEAR - THERE WERE NO OTHER OPTIONS. Certainly not this kind of tactical half-measures you would expect to resolve the crisis in your run of the mill Voyager episode.

It didn't and I think that is what separates this from Voyager and TNG; there were other avenues, perhaps not likely to succeed, but regardless- I think options existed and they went with the one that most expeditious and likely to work at the expense of morality. Excellent television. Dubious (at best) behavior.

-Withers-​

 

[DBall]

I just recently posted in another ITPM thread that I just finished watching it again so it would be fresh in my mind (as I'm re-reading Hollow Men).

First, episodes and decisions like that set DS9 apart from any other trek I have watched because it was darker, grittier... more real.

Second, with the hard-line stance Vreenak was taking, there was little chance of getting through to him. Romulans are stubborn. Period.

I'm sure they aren't stupid enough to believe they were free of the possibility/probability of a war between themselves and the Dominion breaking out, but in a multi-front engagement like that, the smartest move is to wait until your enemies are at their weakest... that time would've been right after they wiped out the Federation and the Klingons. The point is they had nothing to lose and everything to gain by sitting on the sidelines waiting for the end of that war... no matter who wins, the Romulans will have had a better chance defending or conquering whoever the victor was.

Sisko (and the Federation, who gave their support to that decision in the end) had everything to lose by waiting. They were clearly running out of time. Immoral? Yes, but desperate times call for desperate measures. Sure they got their hands dirty, but that turned the tide of the war and saved billions of lives.

It may not have been the 'right' thing to do, but I'd contend it was the only thing to do... a cold and calculated decision in the face of imminent destruction.

 

[Withers]

It may not have been the 'right' thing to do, but I'd contend it was the only thing to do... a cold and calculated decision in the face of imminent destruction.

I'll add to that it was portrayed perfectly for television. All of my suggestions (had they been shown on screen) would have detracted from the amazing piece of television this episode was.

-Withers-​

 

[DBall]

It may not have been the 'right' thing to do, but I'd contend it was the only thing to do... a cold and calculated decision in the face of imminent destruction.

I'll add to that it was portrayed perfectly for television. All of my suggestions (had they been shown on screen) would have detracted from the amazing piece of television this episode was.

100% agree... certainly one of the things that made DS9 easily my favorite trek there was.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

The Romulan Star Empire KNEW its Tal'Shiar tried to kill the founders, KNEW they'll be surrounded when the Federation fell.
None of this was unknown or new, and none changed its position: the romulans still didn't enter the war. They were not reasonable, they were delusional, arrogant? YES! But their decision was standing - Vreenak made it clear.

Vreenak was just one senator. He wasn't their entire delegation. There were elements of the Empire that would have been more receptive (we know because we met them later.) I'm not saying it would have worked I'm just saying there were elements of the argument that weren't stressed or mentioned.

Spock? Do you actually think the Federation didn't try it? Do you think Spock didn't try it?

Well, we'll never know, will we? We know Sisko didn't go that route at the very least.

Odo? A mission to Cardassia was suicide - this was stated clearly in the episode. Garack's Obsidian Order contacts were killed within a day of contact! You think Odo's lower lovel (YES, lower level - Odo was NEVER an Obsidian Order INSIDER) contacts woudn't fare the same?

A mission for Garak would have been suicide. A mission for Odo wasn't out of the question. He was a changeling. He could have done it. And I think with the right amount of reconnaissance it could have been successful.

THE EPISODE MADE IT CLEAR - THERE WERE NO OTHER OPTIONS. Certainly not this kind of tactical half-measures you would expect to resolve the crisis in your run of the mill Voyager episode.

It didn't and I think that is what separates this from Voyager and TNG; there were other avenues, perhaps not likely to succeed, but regardless- I think options existed and they went with the one that most expeditious and likely to work at the expense of morality. Excellent television. Dubious (at best) behavior.

-Withers-​

If this episode would have spent 3/4 of its time explaining in excruciating detail how these half-measures didn't work, would you agree with Sisko's decision?

Personally, I think the scenarists made the correct choice - they chose to show that there was no other option in a few well-placed phrases (implying that these half measures - and others - were tried and failed), and put the rest of the episode to a much better use.

PS: What separates DS9 from TNG and Voy is the fact that, in those politically correct shows, these half-measures always worked; the writers never had the courage to put the characters in a no-win situation, That's what makes TNG, Voy, unrealitic, a kid's show.

 

[Withers]

If ths episode would have spent 3/4 of its time explaining in excruciating detail how these half-measures didn't work,

All of my suggestions (had they been shown on screen) would have detracted from the amazing piece of television this episode was.

would you agree with Sisko's decision?

If no plans were discovered and all else had failed... I would consider doing what Sisko did and I might ultimately come to that conclusion myself.

Personally, I think the scenarists made the correct choice - they choose to show that there was no other option in a few well-placed phrases (implying that these half measures - and others - were tried and failed), and put the rest of the episode to a much better use.

Agreed. But we're talking about two different things here; the production of a television show and what I would do were I in Sisko's situation in a fictional universe. The television show was portrayed flawlessly and I think that speaks for itself. Were I there, however, not worried about the constraints of wrapping it all up in 42 minutes or commercial breaks or entertaining an audience, I would have made sure all those so-called "half measures" were eliminated as avenues before I turned to Garak.

-Withers-​

 

[Penta]

I think anybody would, yes. You want to give Garak as little blackmail material over you as possible.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

Excellent television. Dubious (at best) behavior.

This. It's part of what makes it a good episode, in my book.

And I think this discussion has stripped the term "politically correct" of whatever shred of meaning it had left...

 

[RobertScorpio]

Excellent television. Dubious (at best) behavior.

This. It's part of what makes it a good episode, in my book.

And I think this discussion has stripped the term "politically correct" of whatever shred of meaning it had left...

I wish all Treks had an episode, or two, like this. What episodes from TOS/TNG/VOY/ENT explore a mans torn soul like this one did?

Rob

 

[DonIago]

I seem to recall "The Omega Directive"(?) aired immediately after ITPM, and while not entirely on the same scale, it was certainly interesting to hear phrases like, "For the duration of this mission the Prime Directive is rescinded."

 

[CommanderRaytas]

In the end, Sisko couldn't refrain from his trademark holier-than-thou little act. Sure, as if it was Garak's fault.

Here I was, thinking wow, this is one badass captain tough enough to make the difficult decisions....and then he fucking blames Garak? Dude, what the hell? Jesus.

He just had to keep it up so he didn't entirely lose the "upright Fed citizen" facade. Punch yourself in the face next time. What a douche.

 

[DBall]

In the end, Sisko couldn't refrain from his trademark holier-than-thou little act. Sure, as if it was Garak's fault.

Here I was, thinking wow, this is one badass captain tough enough to make the difficult decisions....and then he fucking blames Garak? Dude, what the hell? Jesus.

He just had to keep it up so he didn't entirely lose the "upright Fed citizen" facade. Punch yourself in the face next time. What a douche.

Ehh.... he made up for that by saying he was ok with it and would do it again.

 

[Baconnaise]

If I recall correctly Sisko acted on behalf of Starfleet and with their approval as he needed it to get the necessary supplies (the gel etc).

The episode where Jake and Bashir get stuck on the planet (siege of ar whatever I think) with the Klingons attacking is another minor look at how people react to war or stress despite their happy go lucky society at the time.

War doesn't have rules really. You either win or you don't and if you win it doesn't really matter how you achieved it since you can say whatever you want to justify it.

Examples like desertion in almost any army ever created throughout our history. Every war has dubious methods of killing other humans. Most people will usually tell you hey it's them or us. Looking back through history the biggest difference between now and then is we can kill more people in one go than ever before.

 

[Withers]

In the end, Sisko couldn't refrain from his trademark holier-than-thou little act. Sure, as if it was Garak's fault.

Here I was, thinking wow, this is one badass captain tough enough to make the difficult decisions....and then he fucking blames Garak? Dude, what the hell? Jesus.

He just had to keep it up so he didn't entirely lose the "upright Fed citizen" facade. Punch yourself in the face next time. What a douche.

This... strikes me as a refusal to acknowledge what actually happened in the episode. There was no "blaming" Garak. Garak, in fact, pinned the whole thing on Sisko. By involving Garak he knew the job would get done even if it were by means Sisko would be uncomfortable with (or unable to do himself.) Still, he set in motion everything that happened, and was ultimately responsible for all of it. He as good as owned that at the end by saying he'd be able to live with it and that he'd do it again.

-Withers-​

 

[Arpy]

There is a reason we have morals. They aren't arbitrary codes of conduct we follow for ceremonial purposes, nor are they campy principles we adopt for fun. We have morals because they make sense.

In the moment, Sisko and Starfleet made a huge gamble that could have right there and then given victory to the Dominion. If the Romulans or Cardassians or Dominion found out what they were doing, if the data rod did show it was a fake upon retrieval due to scanning methods Garak was unacquainted with, or if Vreenak left the shuttle before the bomb went off, or if the bomb was discovered by the Tal'Shiar before it could go off, or if their was a Changeling spy on the other end of the line at Starfleet, or if a million other things happened, it would have been the end of the war right there, Earth would be exterminated, and all that would be left is the memory of a Federation that were a hypocritical people who did not live up to their own standards and did in fact need to be crushed by the order of the Dominion.

Sisko was one man who couldn't take the casualty reports any more and broke: okay, then he needed either leave or to be replaced.

 

[RobertScorpio]

There is a reason we have morals. They aren't arbitrary codes of conduct we follow for ceremonial purposes, nor are they campy principles we adopt for fun. We have morals because they make sense.

In the moment, Sisko and Starfleet made a huge gamble that could have right there and then given victory to the Dominion. If the Romulans or Cardassians or Dominion found out what they were doing, if the data rod did show it was a fake upon retrieval due to scanning methods Garak was unacquainted with, or if Vreenak left the shuttle before the bomb went off, or if the bomb was discovered by the Tal'Shiar before it could go off, or if their was a Changeling spy on the other end of the line at Starfleet, or if a million other things happened, it would have been the end of the war right there, Earth would be exterminated, and all that would be left is the memory of a Federation that were a hypocritical people who did not live up to their own standards and did in fact need to be crushed by the order of the Dominion.

Sisko was one man who couldn't take the casualty reports any more and broke: okay, then he needed either leave or to be replaced.

Spoken like a true politician.

Rob

 

[Baconnaise]

There is a reason we have morals. They aren't arbitrary codes of conduct we follow for ceremonial purposes, nor are they campy principles we adopt for fun. We have morals because they make sense.

In the moment, Sisko and Starfleet made a huge gamble that could have right there and then given victory to the Dominion. If the Romulans or Cardassians or Dominion found out what they were doing, if the data rod did show it was a fake upon retrieval due to scanning methods Garak was unacquainted with, or if Vreenak left the shuttle before the bomb went off, or if the bomb was discovered by the Tal'Shiar before it could go off, or if their was a Changeling spy on the other end of the line at Starfleet, or if a million other things happened, it would have been the end of the war right there, Earth would be exterminated, and all that would be left is the memory of a Federation that were a hypocritical people who did not live up to their own standards and did in fact need to be crushed by the order of the Dominion.

Sisko was one man who couldn't take the casualty reports any more and broke: okay, then he needed either leave or to be replaced.

I agree with you morals aren't just something you can lightly toss aside. The problem with that is survival and instinct are natural reactions where morals are not. Morals will be the last thing on your mind when faced with a life or death situation especially in war or just trying not to be that next meal to a predator.

There are quite a few examples of this throughout history and even with the first and second world wars. Iraq is another example with the torture and killing of those prisoners. It happens in every war people have always been mistreated even by that era's standards. A new world war if it ever came would see more of the same. We can come up with workable fusion power among other things to bring that utopia closer but any conflict will see the handbook on being a good person will get thrown out (not by all but enough).

I've seen large grown men that can handle gators and snakes and love guns run like a scared housewife at the sight of a decent size spider (banana spiders). Personally I know where my line or point is where everything civil goes out the door and raw emotion and instinct take over. You can say you don't have one but it's most likely false as I haven't met a person that wouldn't do similar if the right situation or event happened to them.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

In the end, Sisko couldn't refrain from his trademark holier-than-thou little act. Sure, as if it was Garak's fault.

Here I was, thinking wow, this is one badass captain tough enough to make the difficult decisions....and then he fucking blames Garak? Dude, what the hell? Jesus.

He just had to keep it up so he didn't entirely lose the "upright Fed citizen" facade. Punch yourself in the face next time. What a douche.

Ehh.... he made up for that by saying he was ok with it and would do it again.

Oh, I know. But it was still stupid, because he did not admit he was being self-righteous and annoying.

Also, I have been waiting to say that for a long time.