I would still talk to my child as my child. Yes, I would be torn up but I wouldn't ignore them! Because that is what Sarek did in response to what happened to him.
Spoilers Why is Sarek Such a Bad Father?
- Thread starter Commishsleer
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That's easy for you to say, because you've never been faced with a situation like that. You have no idea of the pain Sarek was facing.
Perhaps. But, having watched my mom and brother go through a difficult situation and a lot of pain and anguish and still able to find a way to interact with each other I do not feel that Sarek as presented, especially in TOS, is a good father decision.
Sorry, I can't stand this idea that withholding parental interaction is any sort of reasonable response to a child's decision, outside of safety or mental wellbeing concerns. You're telling me that logical Sarek could not find his way to make peace enough, to deal with his own stuff enough, to be in contact with his son?
The easy answer is to say "yes."
But I think he was a parent who just couldn't relate to his children and placed undue burdens on each of them, from Michael to Spock. In his own logical way, he was preparing each child to deal with the realities of living on Vulcan and working for the Vulcan Science Academy or Expedition.
He was preparing them to face other Vulcans who weren't as enlightened as he was in terms of humanity. "Lethe" is the perfect example of this and the challenges Michael faced being accepted. Spock again as a half-human in "Yesteryear" and 09.
Since DISCO, I sympathize with Sarek. He carried great guilt on Michael's application to the Expeditionary Group. And later more guilt with Spock. Who knows how much guilt he suppresses about Sybok too? He was a parent who made plenty of mistakes, but at least unlike Worf was there for his children, even one of them didn't want to speak to him.
Also, I find it ironic that of all the children Sarek could relate to and seemed to favor it was his fully human, adoptive daughter. I love the relationship he has with Michael.
But I think he was a parent who just couldn't relate to his children and placed undue burdens on each of them, from Michael to Spock. In his own logical way, he was preparing each child to deal with the realities of living on Vulcan and working for the Vulcan Science Academy or Expedition.
He was preparing them to face other Vulcans who weren't as enlightened as he was in terms of humanity. "Lethe" is the perfect example of this and the challenges Michael faced being accepted. Spock again as a half-human in "Yesteryear" and 09.
Since DISCO, I sympathize with Sarek. He carried great guilt on Michael's application to the Expeditionary Group. And later more guilt with Spock. Who knows how much guilt he suppresses about Sybok too? He was a parent who made plenty of mistakes, but at least unlike Worf was there for his children, even one of them didn't want to speak to him.
Also, I find it ironic that of all the children Sarek could relate to and seemed to favor it was his fully human, adoptive daughter. I love the relationship he has with Michael.
My opinion of Sarek may come across as overly harsh. I sympathize greatly with him, and I appreciate Discovery and ST 09 all the more for it for making Sarek an interesting character to really explore. I find the time that it takes for Sarek and Spock to make peace with each other difficult to parse through, even though it clearly weighed on him. I guess it was a measure of pride, illogical though it was, to try his best and then feel like it was a waste. He could only rest on the fact that he tried, and his children didn't take advantage of that opportunity.
It is quite telling to see him open up to Michael. I appreciated that, almost as much as ST 09 and the transporter room scene.
I like that Sarek has such an odd selection of kids, like a Vulcan who wants emotions, a human who didn't have emotions, and the hybrid who flip-flopped depending on which day of the week it is. That shit's gotta drive a Vulcan crazy a bit.
Maybe he's not great but I wouldn't say he's a bad father. His kids also have some part to play in breaking off contact. I think they need to introduce at least one more kid though.
Maybe he's not great but I wouldn't say he's a bad father. His kids also have some part to play in breaking off contact. I think they need to introduce at least one more kid though.
My ultimate take on Sarek is that, as the first father to a Vulcan-Human child, he struggled largely because of the lack of a blueprint. Logic is all well and good as a foundation when you have a society that can manage that. But Vulcan traditions were clearly not developed with the concept of raising kids of mixed heritage. Then, throw in a pure human, and...
Well, I tend to think that, by human standards, Vulcan parenting easily qualifies as emotional abuse - if any expression of emotion is, at best, discouraged, a child raised in that environment is doomed to struggle.
Sarek failed his children in only approaching them both as a Vulcan would, when both of the children he raised (as Sybok is supposed to have been raised more by his mother) were not built to be pure Vulcan. And I don’t think Sarek ever really has that realization until the scene with Amanda in the family crypt, when she is outright calling him on his BS, when they discuss Spock’s dyslexia.
Well, I tend to think that, by human standards, Vulcan parenting easily qualifies as emotional abuse - if any expression of emotion is, at best, discouraged, a child raised in that environment is doomed to struggle.
Sarek failed his children in only approaching them both as a Vulcan would, when both of the children he raised (as Sybok is supposed to have been raised more by his mother) were not built to be pure Vulcan. And I don’t think Sarek ever really has that realization until the scene with Amanda in the family crypt, when she is outright calling him on his BS, when they discuss Spock’s dyslexia.
How is this any of Spock's fault?
The Vulcan Expenditionary Group is a group that Sarek implictly supports. They are the group that arbitrarily banned two of Sarek's family from joining for no real valid reasons. So its their fault and Sarek's fault for not standing up to them. If Sarek had said to Spock you know if you join then Michael can't join he would have probably said thank goodness - Its Michael that can be looked down and criticised every day instead of me - Michael you're welcome to it.
Only Sarek is responsible for his lying not Spock.
At the beginning of Season 2 Sarek tells Michael that he hasn't seen Spock in years And that there's something up with him. Does Sarek go to help? Does Amanda? No Sarek's too busy and holding his hate to help his son.Yet you know Sarek did everything he could to get Michael out of trouble. Bent over backwards. Used his favours up. Yet he couldn't jump over tp see Spock on the Enterprise when it was just there. OK OK Spock wasn't actually aboard the Enterprise but Sarek didn't know that.
Sarek is a real piece of work. I think his parenting is his own unique failure, not necessarily an example of how every Vulcan parents. He isn’t the only parent of a human-Vulcan hybrid. Spock says there are others out there like him. If you believe the books, Trip and T’Pol married and had other children too, 100 years or so before.
Sarek is from a high status family. His first betrothed, Sybok’s mother, ended their connection and decided to go off to be a priestess instead. Sarek may or may not have been allowed to have anything to do with his first son, which was probably embarrassing and a blow to his ego.. He then rebelled against Vulcan cultural mores when he married Amanda, a human, had a child and did everything he could to make his human wife act Vulcan and his half human kid a perfect Vulcan. Then he somehow managed to arrange to adopt a fully human child, whom he also twisted up in knots while trying to show he could improve upon her humanity by raising her as a Vulcan. I think he has a thing for humans, is attracted by emotionalism and ashamed that he is, and also has a desire to boost his ego by reforming them and showing the results to the Vulcan Science Academy. His saving grace is that he also loves his wife and children and even gave up a piece of his soul to save Michael.
Sarek is from a high status family. His first betrothed, Sybok’s mother, ended their connection and decided to go off to be a priestess instead. Sarek may or may not have been allowed to have anything to do with his first son, which was probably embarrassing and a blow to his ego.. He then rebelled against Vulcan cultural mores when he married Amanda, a human, had a child and did everything he could to make his human wife act Vulcan and his half human kid a perfect Vulcan. Then he somehow managed to arrange to adopt a fully human child, whom he also twisted up in knots while trying to show he could improve upon her humanity by raising her as a Vulcan. I think he has a thing for humans, is attracted by emotionalism and ashamed that he is, and also has a desire to boost his ego by reforming them and showing the results to the Vulcan Science Academy. His saving grace is that he also loves his wife and children and even gave up a piece of his soul to save Michael.
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Totally agree that Sarek loves his children - perhaps too much. He wants the best for them. So he tries to mold them. He thinks he's a "wise man" and knows better. He withdraws his attention and support for them if they defy him. hence Sarek puts all his outward manifestations of affections towards Michael because she does exactly what Sarek wants her to do. She gets the invites to Paris. She gets the benefits of Sarek's intervention. Not that she could do anything else. Her place in Sarek's household is more tenuous than Spock's. Boy I'm overanalysing this like we do in the TOS Forum. Sorry about that.
Just watched another episode. Its been revealed Spock is a murderer or is it self-defence or is it a mistake. Dun dun dun. OK Amanda and Michael and Pike are going to investigate. Amanda does give a damn. Perhaps Sarek sent her. Perhaps she is defying her husband. Can't wait for next week.
Spock wasn't 'banned', he chose Starfleet instead.
I think Sarek's a bad father, even as I understand what led him to make the decisions he made.
I would argue that he overreacted, but when I remember that Vulcans appear emotionless because their emotions are so overwhelming when set free, his reaction makes a lot more sense.
In short, perhaps Sarek's treatment of Spock was his greatest lapse in logic.
Of course, I come from a family where my dad was a social worker, as was his dad, and I once accused him of being capable of analyzing everyone except his own children.
I would argue that he overreacted, but when I remember that Vulcans appear emotionless because their emotions are so overwhelming when set free, his reaction makes a lot more sense.
In short, perhaps Sarek's treatment of Spock was his greatest lapse in logic.
Of course, I come from a family where my dad was a social worker, as was his dad, and I once accused him of being capable of analyzing everyone except his own children.
Which is not that unusual and is why codes of ethics and best practices in the social services frown upon family treating family and other similar duel relationships.
I agree that Sarek had a lapse in logic and I think that his recognition that his logic was questionable when it came to his son in Star Trek 3. His insight, while late, was appreciated.
I've just watched the episode where Sarek demands that Spock be returned to Section 31 because if Michael does not return him her career in Starfleet will be affected. Then it becomes apparent that Section 31 wants some important info from Spock and they are prepared to kill Spock to get it. Now a bit off topic but does Section 31 have James Bond status - licensed to kill for the greater good? Anyway I'm pretty certain that Sarek didn't believe Section 31 would terminate Spock. Like I haven't seen subsequent episodes but I can't believe Sarek is that bad. So Sarek isn't as smart as he think if he demanded his wife and Michael take Spock to Section 31 to his possible execution. Unless he knew that Michael would find out and stop it.
Licensed? Probably not. But they think so any way.
The name Section 31 is literally derived from Section 31, Article 14 of the Starfleet Charter which authorizes the complete and total abandonment of any and all Starfleet regulations in a time of crisis.
So what's the definition of a crisis? Klingons on the border, Admiral running out of coffee?
The latter for Janeway.
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