Where is system L-374

[fungun]

I am making an addon for the 3D space sim Celestia of the Doomsday Machine. The problem I am having is locating where System L-374 is. I have gone through the Star Trek Star Chart book maps and can't find it. I have also searched the web hi an low with no luck. I wish I had the dvds to watch it again for clues, but I don't.
Anyone have any clues or ideas where it might be located, or what if any real star it could be close too?
Thanks,
Tim

 

[SonicRanger]

It's near-ish LV-426.

 

[Christopher]

I am making an addon for the 3D space sim Celestia of the Doomsday Machine. The problem I am having is locating where System L-374 is. I have gone through the Star Trek Star Chart book maps and can't find it. I have also searched the web hi an low with no luck. I wish I had the dvds to watch it again for clues, but I don't.
Anyone have any clues or ideas where it might be located, or what if any real star it could be close too?

It's a made-up star name, so it could be anywhere. Presumably it should be somewhere relatively close to the "Rigel Colonies," but it's ambiguous where you put those. Thanks to "Broken Bow"'s confused cosmology, it's necessary to assume that the "Rigel" referred to in Trek is not Beta Orionis, but some nearer star. Star Charts postulates an imaginary "Beta Rigel" star that happens to be in the direction of Beta Orionis. I've had the alternative notion that it's actually Mu Virginis, aka Rijl el Awwa (with Rigel and Rijl being variant transliterations of the same Arabic word), which is about 61 light-years away, a reasonable distance for Trek's "Rigel." (In Star Charts, Mu Virginis is located near the Romulan Neutral Zone, opposite Romulus. It isn't identified with any particular Trek star system.)

 

[Timo]

OTOH, the systems that the DDM demolished in the episode seemed to be distant ones, empty ones that nobody cared about. Starfleet didn't realize anything was amiss there, until the two starships paid a visit - and no other ship traffic seemed to take place there.

Also, the L-whatnots seemed to be part of a series, a series of otherwise unnamed systems. Perhaps systems never visited by anybody, only catalogued through telescopes? And telescopes that couldn't (in anything approaching real time) tell that these systems were being gobbled up.

As for the Rigel Colonies, we know the DDM was heading in that direction, but we never heard an estimate of travel time. Somehow, Decker thought he could not wait for reinforcements - but OTOH, it appeared that the monster might in fact be moving at sublight speed, as it never could shake or catch the sublight-hobbled hero starships. If we accept that Decker was mostly mad, the adventure might have taken place at least a hundred lightyears away from the densely inhabited areas of the Rigel Colonies.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Timo, you make an assumption that doesn't hold up:

1)If the DDM was sub-light only, then even the next nearest star system would be YEARS away. Plenty of time for someone to get out of the "interference zone" and broadcast a warning.

Decker saw the DDM as an IMMANENT threat to neighboring systems.

2) Balance of Terror, established that "impulse" power (ie, fusion reactors) could propel a starship at warp speeds. Fuel, however, was a critical concern in that ep, as it was in TTM.

 

[JNG]

I imagine the DDM only limited itself to sublight within the remnants of the solar system, and probably was able to go to warp outside it (although for some reason I don't imagine it moving at high warp...maybe warp factor 4 or something). That's not to say it necessarily used warp drive, but a nice powerful subspace field generation capability would sure make it easier to believe that it could be so massive and still move.

 

[fungun]

From Memory-Alpha-"Its origins were unknown, but based on its apparent trajectory, it was believed to have come from outside the Milky Way Galaxy"
If this is true then Mu Virginis doesn't seem to fit, at least by looking at a 2D map, because it would have to come from the Galactic center.
I was thinking maybe K'Normia (Psi Tauri), it is in the direction of the Galactic edge, far from the center of the Federation, in-line with Beta Rigel, and there are other systems and starbases within 10-20 lyrs.
Any thoughts?

Thanks for your replies guys
Tim

 

[Anticitizen]

It's 'out there. Thataway.'

Alternate Answer: take 'the second star to the right, and straight on 'till morning...'

 

[darkwing_duck1]

From Memory-Alpha-"Its origins were unknown, but based on its apparent trajectory, it was believed to have come from outside the Milky Way Galaxy"
If this is true then Mu Virginis doesn't seem to fit, at least by looking at a 2D map, because it would have to come from the Galactic center.
I was thinking maybe K'Normia (Psi Tauri), it is in the direction of the Galactic edge, far from the center of the Federation, in-line with Beta Rigel, and there are other systems and starbases within 10-20 lyrs.
Any thoughts?

Thanks for your replies guys
Tim

it could have come in from galactic "up" (above the plane of the galaxy), or "down" (from below) and still have come from "outside our galaxy" ...

 

[fungun]

I went back to my maps not 5 min after I posted that and had the same thought.
So I'm going to get the Dec on a few stars that may fit-39 Leonis, 81 Cancri, Tau Hydrae, and Iota Leonis.
Should be one of those above the Galactic plane.
Tim

 

[fungun]

Well I am gonna settle on 39 Leonis. It's near and above Beta Rigel. Its Dec is +23h 6m 22s so it should be believable.

Thanks guys,
Tim

 

[Christopher]

From Memory-Alpha-"Its origins were unknown, but based on its apparent trajectory, it was believed to have come from outside the Milky Way Galaxy"
If this is true then Mu Virginis doesn't seem to fit, at least by looking at a 2D map, because it would have to come from the Galactic center.

Eyeballing it in Celestia and my atlas sky map, I'd say Mu Vir is actually maybe 35-40 degrees north of the galactic plane.

Besides, keep in mind that the planet-killer wasn't heading toward Earth. It was heading toward the Rigel Colonies. I'm proposing Mu Vir (Rijl al Awwa) as the Rigel Colonies, the destination of the planet-killer. It could've been approaching it from any direction.

Of course, if you're content with Star Charts' Beta Rigel, so be it. But there as well, there's no reason to assume the planet-killer's trajectory would be pointing toward Earth.

 

[fungun]

Christopher, I would like to hear more of your thoughts on why Mu Vir (Rijl al Awwa) fits better as being the Rigel planets instead of Beta Rigel or the "real" Rigel. You have me second thinking that part now, since I already made the addon in Celestia using Beta Rigel.
I went through Memeory-Alpha, Memory-Beta, and Star Trek.com for as many clues as I could find.
Went through the episode guides that concerned Rigel too.
It's a very confusing dilemma.
Thanks,
Tim

 

[Christopher]

Christopher, I would like to hear more of your thoughts on why Mu Vir (Rijl al Awwa) fits better as being the Rigel planets instead of Beta Rigel or the "real" Rigel.

Well, the "real" Rigel, Beta Orionis, is out thanks to ENT, particularly "Broken Bow," where Archer acted as though he'd never heard of it. It's totally unbelievable that he would be unaware of "the" Rigel, but possible that he could be unaware of the alternate name for Mu Virginis. Also, there's the fact that modern Trek seems to assume that the Federation is somewhat smaller than TOS seemed to suggest, a reinterpretation that arose largely from DS9's need to have the station be simultaneously on the UFP border and within a reasonable travel time of Earth. So I agree with Geoffrey Mandel's decision to identify the "Rigel" of ST with a closer star.

What I disagree with is making up an imaginary star in the direction of Rigel and giving it the name "Beta Rigel." That doesn't really make sense, because if there were such a star there, we'd know it -- unless it were a teensy, dim red or brown dwarf, in which case it couldn't possibly support over half a dozen inhabited planets. Given that there are other real-life stars with some form of the Arabic word "Rijl" in their names, Occam's Razor argues for going with one of those. And Rijil Kentaurus, aka Alpha Centauri, is already spoken for. So that leaves Rijl al Awwa, Mu Virginis, which is a reasonable candidate in terms of distance and spectral type.

On the other hand, now that I've pinned down its location, I'm having second thoughts. Mu Vir is pretty far away from Klingon territory, and awfully close to Romulan territory, so it's hard to justify it as the Rigel from "Broken Bow." I guess there isn't a solution to the "Rigel problem" that works well in both real-astronomy terms and Trek-geography terms.

 

[fungun]

But in 3d space, since you say Mu Vir is 35-40 degrees north of the galactic plane, then couldn't it be close to Klingon space by the angle?
That way it could work.



I can't post attachments yet. Was gonna make a pic.
Other than that it really does make sense.
Tim

 

[Christopher]

But in 3d space, since you say Mu Vir is 35-40 degrees north of the galactic plane, then couldn't it be close to Klingon space by the angle?
That way it could work.

No, it really couldn't. Because it's still just as far from Klingon space "horizontally" as shown on the map. That's the minimum distance the two can have if they're at exactly the same "vertical" position. If one is "higher" or "lower" from the plane of the page than the other, then their actual distance is even greater than the map indicates. That's simple geometry.

 

[Neopeius]

Christopher, I would like to hear more of your thoughts on why Mu Vir (Rijl al Awwa) fits better as being the Rigel planets instead of Beta Rigel or the "real" Rigel.

Well, the "real" Rigel, Beta Orionis, is out thanks to ENT, particularly "Broken Bow," where Archer acted as though he'd never heard of it.

Does it really have to fit ENT? Isn't that the same episode which had the Klingon homeworld four days from Earth?!

 

[Lieut. Arex]

I agree. ENT and any of its info have no bearing on DDM and its Rigel, at least not in the context of this forum.

Another point to remember: This was being written for an audience and the use of a star name like Deneb or Arcturus or Rigel was to provide those viewers with a familiar reference. The common TV viewer in 1967 didn't know there were many stars with Rigel or Rijil in their names. When they hear "Rigel" they think Rigel, Beta Orionis, one of the few stars they're likely to be able to walk outside and identify.

 

[Neopeius]

I agree. ENT and any of its info have no bearing on DDM and its Rigel, at least not in the context of this forum.

Another point to remember: This was being written for an audience and the use of a star name like Deneb or Arcturus or Rigel was to provide those viewers with a familiar reference. The common TV viewer in 1967 didn't know there were many stars with Rigel or Rijil in their names. When they hear "Rigel" they think Rigel, Beta Orionis, one of the few stars they're likely to be able to walk outside and identify.

And as such, it kind of makes sense that the system may be nowhere near Beta Orionis, but may be a star invisible from Earth and near Rigel as viewed from Earth. It may even refer to a set of stars which fit that description--"Out Rigel Way" as it were.

 

[Christopher]

Well, the "real" Rigel, Beta Orionis, is out thanks to ENT, particularly "Broken Bow," where Archer acted as though he'd never heard of it.

Does it really have to fit ENT? Isn't that the same episode which had the Klingon homeworld four days from Earth?!

There are countless things in Trek canon that are implausible -- humanoid aliens, viruses that transform bodies, magic instant translators, psychic powers, godlike superbeings, the Genesis Device, you name it. But it's all part of the same whole and we have to work with its assumptions.

Besides, as I already explained, ENT is just one of the reasons. The 24th-century shows, particularly DS9 and VGR, increasingly adopted a small-Federation cosmology and the idea that a starship could cover no more than a thousand light-years per year. A closer "Rigel" is a logical consequence of all that, not just of ENT's use of Rigel.

And as such, it kind of makes sense that the system may be nowhere near Beta Orionis, but may be a star invisible from Earth and near Rigel as viewed from Earth. It may even refer to a set of stars which fit that description--"Out Rigel Way" as it were.

That's another point I already addressed. The only way a star could fit that description is if it's a very small, dim star, which is impossible to reconcile with the sheer number of inhabited Rigel planets seen in Trek.

Indeed, I checked Celestia, and it turns out there are very few nearby stars at all in the direction of Rigel, and they're all pretty small and dim stars. The nearest major star to Rigel (in terms of apparent sky position) that's relatively close to Earth is 29 Orionis, a yellow giant 174 light-years away.