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Where is system L-374

Well, I tried the same thing in Celestia long ago when I was pondering the Rigel problem. Since you can add fictional stars in Celestia, I went with creating Beta Rigel and modeled it after the system shown in the Star Trek Star Charts book.
With that in mind, the only course I can take now is to use 39 Leonis for the L-374 system. Which should work out ok I think. It's well above the Galactic plane, and the name starts with a L (Leonis).
I am also gonna make the assumption that maybe they didn't travel too much north or south of the plane. (?????)
This also reminds me of the Deneb problem. We have Deneb and Deneb Kaitos. wtf ??????:lol:
Thanks alot guys for the replies.
Tim
ps if any of you guys are intrested in Trek addons for Celestia, I have made a bunch. They are the ones by "fungun" http://www.celestiamotherlode.net/index.html
 
This also reminds me of the Deneb problem. We have Deneb and Deneb Kaitos. wtf ??????:lol:

Just as Rigel shows up repeatedly because it's Arabic for "foot," so Deneb shows up repeatedly because it's Arabic for "tail." There are actually eight star names it occurs in:

Deneb Algedi (Delta Capricorni)
Deneb Algenubi (Eta Ceti)
Deneb Dulfim (Epsilon Delphini)
Deneb el Okab (shared by Epsilon and Zeta Aquilae)
Deneb Kaitos (Beta Ceti)
Deneb Kaitos Shemali (Iota Ceti)
Deneb (Alpha Cygni)
Denebola (Beta Leonis)

TOS established Deneb as a familiar system, home of Denebian brandy and slime devils, but "Encounter at Farpoint" treated Deneb as a system at the farthest edge of the frontier a century later. So it makes sense to assume the "Deneb" of TOS was one of the nearer Denebs -- particularly since we now know that Alpha Cygni is much farther away than we used to think.
 
Perhaps the starships in the ENT timeframe "burned" out the faster warp corridors, leaving the slower ones for the TOS timeframe. Maybe an artifact of the Earth-Romulan war battles???
 
That's another point I already addressed. The only way a star could fit that description is if it's a very small, dim star, which is impossible to reconcile with the sheer number of inhabited Rigel planets seen in Trek.

Indeed, I checked Celestia, and it turns out there are very few nearby stars at all in the direction of Rigel, and they're all pretty small and dim stars. The nearest major star to Rigel (in terms of apparent sky position) that's relatively close to Earth is 29 Orionis, a yellow giant 174 light-years away.

How much parsec range were you allowing for in your search? Also, 40 years ago, our knowledge of the several hundred light years of space between here and Rigel was likely less complete than it is now allowing us to fill in gaps.
 
How much parsec range were you allowing for in your search?

I assumed the goal was to find something that could be a reasonable candidate for Mandel's "Beta Rigel," so we'd be looking for something relatively nearby. At 174 light-years, 29 Orionis is actually much farther than Star Charts' Beta Rigel.

Also, 40 years ago, our knowledge of the several hundred light years of space between here and Rigel was likely less complete than it is now allowing us to fill in gaps.

How is that relevant to anything in this discussion? I was using Celestia, which displays the entire contents of the Hipparcos Catalogue, based on data gathered from 15-20 years ago (gee, that long?). And as I said (twice!), any previously or currently unknown stars within a reasonably close range would have to be too small and dim to support the large number of inhabited planets Rigel has in Trek.
 
How much parsec range were you allowing for in your search?

I assumed the goal was to find something that could be a reasonable candidate for Mandel's "Beta Rigel," so we'd be looking for something relatively nearby. At 174 light-years, 29 Orionis is actually much farther than Star Charts' Beta Rigel.

Not parsecs from Earth. Seconds of arc from Rigel on the celestial sphere. In a cone with a base radius of 1 parsec from Rigel (Beta Orionis, some 800 light years from Earth), there is a volume of around 8000 cubic light years. Expand the radius to 2 seconds of arc, and you get around 36000 cubic light years.

Within 12.5 light years of Earth, there are 33 stars of various sizes. That's 8200 cubic light years.

In the sphere of space within 20 light years of Earth there are 109 stars of various sizes. This is a sphere of 33500 cubic light years.

So in the a cone extending to Rigel with a one parsec radius, we can expect to find at least 30 stars, some of which should statistically be amenable to life.

Make the cone base twice as wide, and there should be around 100 stars in that volume.

I don't know how fine your catalog's resolution is, but if there aren't a few golden stars between here and Rigel, then it's incomplete.

(Note, if you're not talking about The Rigel, Beta Orionis, then we're talking about different things, obviously. Equally obviously, most of the volume in these cones is at the far end.)


And as I said (twice!), any previously or currently unknown stars within a reasonably close range would have to be too small and dim to support the large number of inhabited planets Rigel has in Trek.
Who said we're only talking about one star? Do they ever describe all twelve planets as in orbit around a single star?
 
In the Trek context, we can always assume that unknown stars are hiding behind the superdense nebulae that are a key characteristic of the Trek galaxy. Since those nebulae are also typically really tiny, the discovery of warp drive would pretty much immediately give us the parallax base to peek past them and see the hidden stars...

As for the DDM's range and speed, it does seem to be limited to very low sublight (no more than the "1/3 impulse power" speed of the crippled Constellation) when in L-374 with the two starships. Perhaps its digestive system is incompatible with its warp drive. Or perhaps it takes several days to accelerate that much mass to warp speed, but once it gets going, it can maintain a good pace. Nevertheless, it would seem very odd for Spock to jump to the conclusion that the thing comes from outside the galaxy when he has half a dozen star systems at the very best to give him a sense of direction, and no real data to give him an indication of distance or speed.

Note how the DDM goes from one L-coded star system to another. Those don't sound as if they could lie in a straight line. Unless the DDM skips some 90% of the systems in its coarse path and only eats those directly on the beeline, its path must be meandering. And if it skips systems, it's very odd it would go from "L-370" through a couple of others to "L-374"...

So basically we lack some secret ingredient that Spock used for establishing the point or direction of origin of the DDM. We would IMHO be best off if we assumed that the action took place very close to the border of the galaxy, giving maximum credence to Spock's guesstimate - a wide cone of possible arrival directions could then meet the criteria of extragalacticsm.

Which then calls to question how far the "most densely populated section" of Milky Way really is from there. The Rigel colony is "the next star system" from L-374, that much is given. But only "millions" are at risk there, so that's probably not yet the "most densely populated section" which Spock was ultimately worried about. It might take centuries for the device to reach that section.

It might also take months to reach the Rigel colony. Spock doesn't see any immediacy in intercepting the DDM, after all, even though the agitated and obsessed Decker initially does.

I don't think we should be all that worried about the relationship of this Rigel colony to stars named Rigel, however. After all, it's a colony. Perhaps it is a colony founded by people from Rigel? TOS has plenty of references to "Earth colonies" that lie outside Sol, so why not to a "Rigel colony" that doesn't lie in a star system named Rigel? Or even a random well-known colony (Spock seems to know all about it without looking) named in honor of Rigel?

Timo Saloniemi
 
Not parsecs from Earth. Seconds of arc from Rigel on the celestial sphere. In a cone with a base radius of 1 parsec from Rigel (Beta Orionis, some 800 light years from Earth), there is a volume of around 8000 cubic light years. Expand the radius to 2 seconds of arc, and you get around 36000 cubic light years.

The terms "parsec" and "second of arc" are not synonymous. An arcsecond is a unit of angular separation; a parsec is a unit of real, physical distance equal to 3.2616 light years. It's the distance at which something 1 AU in diameter would subtend an angle of one arcsecond. You appear to be using "parsec" interchangeably with "arcsecond," and that's gibberish.

And you still don't seem to understand what I was trying to do. I'm critiquing Mandel's idea of Beta Rigel as a star that happens to be in the direction of Rigel, but much closer. The Beta Rigel in Star Charts is more or less exactly aligned with Rigel as seen from Earth (at least in the plane of the map, but implicitly in three dimensions); if such a star existed, it would form a visual binary with Rigel in the sky and we'd know it was there. My point is that there is no such star that close to Rigel in the sky; that the nearest non-red-dwarf star to Rigel (in terms of angular separation) that's relatively close to Earth (in terms of physical distance) is 29 Orionis, which is about one and a half degrees away from Rigel in the sky (in other words, over 5500 arcseconds away), and is much farther from Earth than Mandel's Beta Rigel.


Within 12.5 light years of Earth, there are 33 stars of various sizes. That's 8200 cubic light years.

In the sphere of space within 20 light years of Earth there are 109 stars of various sizes. This is a sphere of 33500 cubic light years.

So in the a cone extending to Rigel with a one parsec radius, we can expect to find at least 30 stars, some of which should statistically be amenable to life.

Assuming you mean to say "arcsecond" instead of "parsec"... you're making the false assumption that the stars are evenly distributed. What you're saying is true on the average, but in actual fact, any such cone could just as easily contain 50 or 10 or 0 stars.

Besides, what I'm talking about is not a theoretical estimate. I'm telling you, I'm looking at a graphical representation of what actually is there in the sky in the direction of Rigel. There are no horizons in space -- you can see everything that's there if your telescopes are sensitive enough. We already know every bright star that's out there in that direction, because we can see them. And the documented fact is that 29 Orionis is the (angularly) closest bright star to Rigel. You can see for yourself by going outside and looking through a telescope. This isn't speculation, it's something we know for a fact because people have actually gone out and looked.

And yes, it's true that there are probably dimmer stars within that cone that we haven't discovered yet. I've already acknowledged that. And I've already explained why they couldn't possibly be ST's "Rigel." The Rigel system in ST has at least 12 planets, at least 7 of which are at least marginally habitable. That's hard enough to justify in the case of a large, hot star with a wide habitable zone. It's impossible to justify for a tiny, dim red dwarf whose habitable zone would be barely wide enough to fit one planet.


I don't know how fine your catalog's resolution is, but if there aren't a few golden stars between here and Rigel, then it's incomplete.

If there are any G-type stars not yet discovered in that direction, then they'd have to be pretty far away. Red dwarfs are dim, so there are ones quite nearby that we still haven't discovered. There are still new ones being found within 30 light-years. But Sunlike stars are considerably brighter, so obviously they'd have to be farther away to fall below our current detection threshold. So any such unknown G-type star as you propose would have to be much, much closer to Rigel than to Earth, which makes it useless as a candidate for Mandel's Beta Rigel. You keep trying to broaden the parameters beyond the range that's relevant to the specific point I'm making. Mandel specifically proposed an A5V dwarf that's within forty light-years of Earth and is roughly in the direction of Rigel. My point is simply that there is no real star that corresponds even roughly to that. Whether there's, say, an unknown G star 500 light-years away in the southern part of Orion is completely irrelevant to that point. Besides, if it were that far away, what would be the point? Why not just use Beta Orionis itself? The whole idea of a second Rigel is that it's substantially closer to Earth.


And as I said (twice!), any previously or currently unknown stars within a reasonably close range would have to be too small and dim to support the large number of inhabited planets Rigel has in Trek.
Who said we're only talking about one star? Do they ever describe all twelve planets as in orbit around a single star?

Again, I'm responding specifically to Mandel's premise from Star Charts, which does portray Beta Rigel as a single star with twelve planets. More generally, to get back to the core topic, "The Doomsday Machine" specifically refers to the Rigel Colonies, plural, suggesting that they occupy a Rigel system with more than one inhabited planet.
 
Actually, the episode is unclear on the number initially: Sulu says "The Rigel colonissir", which may be read either as "The Rigel colony, Sir" or "The Rigel colonies, Sir".

Even if "the Rigel colonies" were a plural and referred to a "Rigel system" of some sort, this doesn't mean there would be multiple planets there - only multiple colonies on the one inhabitable planet. But as said, the plurality is already contested, and the population at risk is only in the range of "millions".

Admittedly, it is appealing to bunch up the several mentions of Rigel planets in TOS and say that all the planets circle the same star Rigel. But it doesn't fit together very well, especially if we accept that the action in "DDM" takes place quite a distance from the densely populated parts of the galaxy. Certainly a Rigel system with a dozen inhabited planets would count as "densely populated part", with population in the billions!

Timo Saloniemi
 
The terms "parsec" and "second of arc" are not synonymous.

You're right. A second of arc from Rigel is going to be bigger than a second of arc from Alpha Centauri. Parsecs are only useful when measuring parallax.

Which means my volume calculations were all wrong. To get a volume equivalent of the first cone I posited, I'd have had to sweep an angle of 13 degrees around Rigel. Still possible, but maybe pushing things a bit. :)

And you still don't seem to understand what I was trying to do.

And I told you last post we were probably arguing at cross purposes. I don't really care about Mandel. I offered an in-canon speculation on what the Rigel colonies could be.

Based on my new calculations, it makes more sense for the "Rigel" colonies to be a group of stars in the general spatial vicinity of Rigel rather than somewhere in between Earth and Rigel.

Of course, that's if Rigel is *the* Rigel, which I like but am not married to.

Also, I'd like to see the script for Doomsday Machine. The transcript I'm reading (The Czech site) consistently makes it singular. "The Rigel colony." "The Rigel system's population." "We cannot save Rigel."

Which undermines one of my points and one of yours. :)
 
That's the usual way to transcribe it, I guess: TrekCore and Chakoteya's site also go with "colony" rather than "colonies" on the one ambiguous issue. But if it pleases us, we could choose otherwise. In any case, it is established that only one star system is under immediate threat here, and that this system goes by the name "Rigel system" and has a population in millions.

Timo Saloniemi
 
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