What comprises a Starbase?

[Tomalak]

I didn't say ownership. I believe I said Authority.
the power or right to give orders or make decisions;
If you're not in command of the station then Bajorans aren't making the decisions. I didn't think this was a hard concept to understand.

Well it's an exchange like any other. In exchange for ceding "authority" of a crumbling space station in orbit, they get Federation assistance and protection.

Again, remember that before the discovery of the wormhole, Deep Space Nine was nothing. It was a place that Bajorans hated, as so many of their people had been worked to death in the ore processing facilities. Kira was sent there to keep her out of the way, and it was a hive of crime and disorder. What decisions were there to make? The Provisional Government doubtless had better things to do than decide how much rent to charge Garak and Quark.

What episode?

'The Siege', at the beginning of season 2. Jaro orders non-Bajorans to leave the station. Sisko instead hides on the station, because he knows Jaro and the Circle are being indirectly backed by the Cardassians, who are attempting to drive the Federation off Bajor so they can reconquer the planet and control the wormhole.

Starfleet couldn't directly intervene, because it appeared to be an internal political matter, and therefore a violation of the Prime Directive. But it was just the same as the Klingon civil war, because the Bajorans, like Duras' supporters, didn't realise they were being manipulated by a bitter enemy.

Secondly it was noted that destroying the array would result in a change of power verses the Occampans and a violation of the prime directive. So that alone sets the precedent of interfering with the balance of power between two warp civilizations is illegal

No, that's got to be wrong. It was Voyager's involvement that damaged the array's self destruct, so Janeway's decision to ensure it was destroyed preserved the balance of power. Otherwise the Kazon would have taken control of it, which should not have happened.

Shouldn't there have been some sort of Treaty like NATO?

How do we know there wasn't?

Bajor had also applied to join the Federation, which apparently brings them under the UFP's sphere of influence as a protectorate, if the Evora in Insurrection are anything to go by.

 

[Saquist]

Well it's an exchange like any other. In exchange for ceding "authority" of a crumbling space station in orbit, they get Federation assistance and protection.

Again, remember that before the discovery of the wormhole, Deep Space Nine was nothing. It was a place that Bajorans hated, as so many of their people had been worked to death in the ore processing facilities. Kira was sent there to keep her out of the way, and it was a hive of crime and disorder. What decisions were there to make? The Provisional Government doubtless had better things to do than decide how much rent to charge Garak and Quark.

I'm not sure that's an effective explanation considering the first episode the Wormhole was discovered. She could have been replaced at any time but someone they felt deserved the position.[/QUOTE]

'The Siege', at the beginning of season 2. Jaro orders non-Bajorans to leave the station. Sisko instead hides on the station, because he knows Jaro and the Circle are being indirectly backed by the Cardassians, who are attempting to drive the Federation off Bajor so they can reconquer the planet and control the wormhole.

Starfleet couldn't directly intervene, because it appeared to be an internal political matter, and therefore a violation of the Prime Directive. But it was just the same as the Klingon civil war, because the Bajorans, like Duras' supporters, didn't realise they were being manipulated by a bitter enemy.

I'm watching season two now.
I can't read that.

No, that's got to be wrong. It was Voyager's involvement that damaged the array's self destruct, so Janeway's decision to ensure it was destroyed preserved the balance of power. Otherwise the Kazon would have taken control of it, which should not have happened.

Janeway concluded they wee involved anyway and did what she felt was right. But you have to understand it's not Star Fleet's place to preserve the balance of power between waring nations or even between a conquering government and an invaded land...just like the bajoran cardassian situation.

How do we know there wasn't?

That's speculation.

Bajor had also applied to join the Federation, which apparently brings them under the UFP's sphere of influence as a protectorate, if the Evora in Insurrection are anything to go by.

So the question is...is Bajor a protectorate?
Or is it a membership applicant.

 

[Eternality]

Reading this thread has gotten me thinking about how perhaps a Starbase is no more a single physical thing than a Fleet is.

A Starbase might be best understood as an administrative formation that includes specific assets such as ship service, refueling and repair facilities, shore leave facilities, Sector administration and liaison, hospital facilities and so forth. In such a case, it wouldn't be necessary for the Federation to own DS9 (or any other structure in the Bajor System) for a Starbase to exist; the Starbase is an administrative collection of Starfleet operations overlaid on a Bajoran civilian space station.

Of course, some facilities may be permanent "Starbase-only" structures that wouldn't have any other use (SB 375 seems like an example), but one of those big 'shrooms like SB 74 may actually have some other designation altogether that encompasses both civilian and Starfleet parts (Tarsas Spacedock perhaps?), but any Starfleet captain would probably refer to it by it's Starfleet designation only.

Thus, a major formation like SB 11 would include orbital and surface facilities, perhaps spread all over a planet, while SB DS9 would be a smaller and less functional space-only formation.

 

[Tomalak]

I'm not sure that's an effective explanation considering the first episode the Wormhole was discovered. She could have been replaced at any time but someone they felt deserved the position.

Well yes, they could do that. In light of your next post, I'll say no more.

I'm watching season two now.
I can't read that.

So you've not seen all the series? Don't you think you should perhaps make sure you know all the facts before commenting on it?

Janeway concluded they wee involved anyway and did what she felt was right. But you have to understand it's not Star Fleet's place to preserve the balance of power between waring nations or even between a conquering government and an invaded land...just like the bajoran cardassian situation.

Why not? In this case they were asked by Bajor for help rebuilding. I assume protection was part of that too. It's well within their rights to defend a warp-capable planet that asks for it. The prime directive prevents non-interference in internal affairs, which Starfleet abide by in the series.

I'm going to say something about season three, so if you've not seen it, look away now.

Spoiler: The Search

In this episode Starfleet makes a peace treaty with the Dominion which gives them (the Dominon) control of the wormhole. Nechayev specifically states that the Dominion will henceforth be responsible for Bajor's safety instead of the Federation. This is revealed to be an illusion, but Sisko doesn't question it, so it must be accurate and convincing.

That's speculation.

Welcome to Trek Tech.

So the question is...is Bajor a protectorate?
Or is it a membership applicant.

Never clearly stated, but see 'Rapture' in season five.

 

[Timo]

It's well within their rights to defend a warp-capable planet that asks for it.

It ought to be within their rights to defend any planet that asks for it, warp or not, since the ability to ask already proves the planet is "contaminated by contact".

However, TNG "Pen Pals" still makes sense, sort of, because a planet did not contact the Federation for help. An unauthorized individual did, without demonstrating that the planet would have the necessary political integrity to maintain meaningful interstellar contact. But the Federation has also clandestinely helped various planets, such as in "Paradise Syndrome", suggesting that the will to help might override technicalities standing in the way of helping. The fewer technicalities, the more likely we're to see a gesture of help, although it is probably motivated by other things besides altruism.

Bajor would present many technicalities and practicalities. Providing aid would anger the Cardassians, which might be politically unwise, or then wise and desirable. Dealing with a planet that is only barely unified under a single government would be contrary to the party line, but could be argued to lead towards a more solid unification. And having a foothold next to the homeworld of a former and future enemy would have pros and cons that could override the Prime Directive - a rule that only binds Starfleet, and by definition cannot bind those who made and thus are also entitled to break the rule.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Saquist]

So you've not seen all the series? Don't you think you should perhaps make sure you know all the facts before commenting on it?

No. I can comment on my current knowledge.
It's foolish to think you'll always have all the facts. Becoming informed by others with more information bears no shame at least for me because I don't engage in ego contest but rather debates of information.

(Note I didn't watch much of season 1 and 2 and I am currently watching them for the purpose of a separate debate)

(I see thought that they did replace Kira with a famous rebel leader though) Odd that Sisko had no say..but he says as much and as I understand it...he merely requested a Bajoran first officer. He didn't know who he was getting.

Why not? In this case they were asked by Bajor for help rebuilding. I assume protection was part of that too. It's well within their rights to defend a warp-capable planet that asks for it. The prime directive prevents non-interference in internal affairs, which Starfleet abide by in the series.

It's a non interference Directive.
You tell me. There is no difference between the Cardassian/Bajoran conflict as the Kazon/Occompan conflict.
But if "asking" is the only rule ...then that's pretty interpretable rule isn't it? What if they're incapable of asking?

Spoiler: The Search

In this episode Starfleet makes a peace treaty with the Dominion which gives them (the Dominon) control of the wormhole. Nechayev specifically states that the Dominion will henceforth be responsible for Bajor's safety instead of the Federation. This is revealed to be an illusion, but Sisko doesn't question it, so it must be accurate and convincing.

I don't question it.
That means in the illusion Bajor was a Federation Protectorate. Is that true in "reality" though?

Welcome to Trek Tech.

What does a treaty have to do with technology?

 

[Tomalak]

It's a non interference Directive.
You tell me. There is no difference between the Cardassian/Bajoran conflict as the Kazon/Occompan conflict.
But if "asking" is the only rule ...then that's pretty interpretable rule isn't it? What if they're incapable of asking?

I think it is different. Had Voyager not been involved, the Caretaker's array would have self-destructed, and the Ocampa would have been able to live in safety from the Kazon.

Ship captains have to make these sorts of decisions in difficult circumstances. Janeway decided the right course of action was to destroy the array to help the Ocampa. I don't know Federation legal experts would say she was right or wrong; we are never told either.

I don't see anything in the Prime Directive that prevents them aiding a warp capable ally when asked. And you're right, it is interpretive. One of the roles of a ship captain is interpreting the Prime Directive. Janeway mentions several times skirting the line can be difficult, I think Picard does too.

The trouble is, there is enough inconsistency through the years that what applies in one situation is different in another. But basing it on what we see in Deep Space Nine, there is obviously no problem with the Federation aiding Bajor, so clearly it is not a violation of the Prime Directive. That's got to be the bottom line here.

I don't question it.
That means in the illusion Bajor was a Federation Protectorate. Is that true in "reality" though?

Well, Sisko doesn't seem anything wrong with the notion, so you have to assume that yes, it is true. The whole point was that the illusion was perfect, Sisko and company didn't suspect a thing - they blew up the wormhole for real as far as they knew. Surely if they got a big geopolitical issue wrong, they would have made far more errors in the little things? But no one smelled a rat, it was flawless.

You have to conclude that is the case in reality.

What does a treaty have to do with technology?

I just mean that this section is full of speculation based on skant evidence. Virtually nothing can be "proven", it's just about extrapolating what we see on screen. I hope I'm doing that!

 

[Saquist]

I think it is different. Had Voyager not been involved, the Caretaker's array would have self-destructed, and the Ocampa would have been able to live in safety from the Kazon.

But that's the preservation of power theory.
That's not part of the Prime Directive.

Ship captains have to make these sorts of decisions in difficult circumstances. Janeway decided the right course of action was to destroy the array to help the Ocampa. I don't know Federation legal experts would say she was right or wrong; we are never told either.

Indeed.

I don't see anything in the Prime Directive that prevents them aiding a warp capable ally when asked. And you're right, it is interpretive. One of the roles of a ship captain is interpreting the Prime Directive. Janeway mentions several times skirting the line can be difficult, I think Picard does too.

Allies have always come with the understanding of an alliance or treaty. What we're talking about is taking action in a power struggle.

The trouble is, there is enough inconsistency through the years that what applies in one situation is different in another. But basing it on what we see in Deep Space Nine, there is obviously no problem with the Federation aiding Bajor, so clearly it is not a violation of the Prime Directive. That's got to be the bottom line here.

I concur but the contradictions remain.
They really haven't clearly exemplified this in numerous situations. The Klingons and Kazon being just two that I can think of.

Well, Sisko doesn't seem anything wrong with the notion, so you have to assume that yes, it is true. The whole point was that the illusion was perfect, Sisko and company didn't suspect a thing - they blew up the wormhole for real as far as they knew. Surely if they got a big geopolitical issue wrong, they would have made far more errors in the little things? But no one smelled a rat, it was flawless.

Wait. That's not a necessary truth. It merely suggest that Sisko went along with what he was being told. It doesn't establish Bajor was a Federation Protectorate as a matter of fact.

You have to conclude that is the case in reality.

Again it's not a necessary truth but it is a logical deduction.

I just mean that this section is full of speculation based on skant evidence. Virtually nothing can be "proven", it's just about extrapolating what we see on screen. I hope I'm doing that!

Proof requires direct observation
Support requires the greater weight of all the evidence (does not equal proof)
Extrapolation is the projection of evidence based speculation (does not equal support or proof) It's a possible eventuality.

-Conjecture is baseless speculation without bounds.


The evidence would seem to support your assertion that Bajor is a Federation Protectorate. I'd say you did a good job presenting your case. In the light of which might mean that Federation's control of the station reflected such a relationship .

 

[Tomalak]

Proof requires direct observation
Support requires the greater weight of all the evidence (does not equal proof)
Extrapolation is the projection of evidence based speculation (does not equal support or proof) It's a possible eventuality.

-Conjecture is baseless speculation without bounds.

Yes, I understand this. The deal with Star Trek is that the evidence often just isn't there, because it's not remotely relevant to the story needs of an individual episode. There are 170-odd episodes of DS9, and only a couple even touch upon the relationship between Bajor and the Federation. Maybe that seems odd given the premise of the show, but there's never been a story where we really need to know this stuff.

The evidence would seem to support your assertion that Bajor is a Federation Protectorate. I'd say you did a good job presenting your case. In the light of which might mean that Federation's control of the station reflected such a relationship .

Thanks, if you notice anything as you're watching the series, feel free to bring it up. I've not watched DS9 for a while so I'm doubtless overlooking something.