What comprises a Starbase?
- Thread starter Warped9
- Start date
And then later in the series, DS9 is referred to as a starbase four times--and even a Federation starbase by Sisko twice (which wouldn't be wrong if it was officially declared as such by then pending Bajor's admission into the Federation).
Saquist
Commodore
I think it depends on the context but in the end it's just a complete contradiction and DS9 has quite a few internal conflicts of this type from what I've seen.
In the end it has to be a bajoran Starbase only because they were not member of the Federation and Kira specifically says that the station is theirs and not Star Fleet.
A bit of a contradiction letting a Star Fleet Officer have control
Then when the Federation leaves it's suddenly under the authority of a Bajoran officer. BUT again in the hands of the Dominion....I can see why the Bajoran freedom fighters had a problem with the provisional government.
You may be able to dismiss it once, but four times it becomes canon. So DS9 is a starbase, and ultimately a Federation starbase in the end (even if it started off as something else).
In fact, it's "Deep Space" designation may signify that it is a starbase operating in foreign territory or with permission/conjunction with another government.
Saquist
Commodore
That maybe true but it's still a contradiction.
The question is...who controls the station. It's in Bajoran Space, under the jurisdiction of a Bajoran Provisional Governement but commanded by a star Fleet Officer...
Really who does that? Shouldn't Kira be the Commander of the Station? Star Fleet didn't win the Bajorans freedom so why are they in control....It's such a contradiction and it's got me in knots trying to figure out why would a government do this...EVEN if it was to keep the Cardassians at bay.
Inviting the Fedeation in isn't the same as giving them control of an entire station in orbit of your planet...why isn't a presence good enough?
And Star Fleet is very arrogant about it too.
Kira goes around Sisko's back to an Admiral and the Admiral calls Sisko concerned that an underling has just taken her out of a staff meeting.
I thought the Bajorans had sway here?
May be to you, but I think it works rather nicely.
It's simply a joint operation. After the Cardassian occupation, Bajor applied for membership in the Federation and a Starfleet team was sent to facilitate that process. For that effort, Deep Space Nine was established as the Federation's base of operations in the Bajor Sector at the request of the Bajoran government, and Sisko was appointed as administrator (it was his choice to have a Bajoran as his XO rather than a Starfleet one). During that time, we saw Starfleet establish a presence on the station and make a number of upgrades. In time, Deep Space Nine became an open port of call, Starfleet mission staging area, commerce center, etc., and it wasn't unusual to see various Starfleet vessels docked at the station.
Now, if the relationship between Bajor and the Federation had turned sour--as it almost did at one point--Bajor could have told the Federation to get lost and Sisko and his crew would have taken all their toys and gone home, and Deep Space Nine would probably have ceased to exist as far as the Federation was concerned.
IMO, it's likely that the Bajor did eventually join the Federation sometime after DS9 went off the air and the Bajoran Militia was absorbed into Starfleet...
Sure, they could ask the Feds to leave any time they liked, and but why would they? The Bajoran Provisional Government wants to join the Federation. They have just been decimated by decades of occupation, they are in no position to operate the station from what we can see.
Their population is starving and dying due to inadequate medical treatments, they can't give over resources to repair and operate Terok Nor. Asking the Federation to come and administer the facility for them makes perfect logical sense - they get a Federation presence to repair the station and defend the planet from the Cardiassians and other nasties. This presence can also provide the aid they need to get the planet back on its feet.
Starfleet's always arrogant, but what Kira did there was wrong. Once the government signed over the station to them, Kira had no right to go grousing to an admiral about the commander. It's almost certain she had no authority to do that, and her superiors would have come down hard on her for sticking her beak into something that was none of her business.
As for being dumbfounded at a planet handing over command to an outside agency, it's no different from all those USAF bases dotted around the world. The host nations get US protection and aid for allowing them to keep troops, planes and missiles pointing at the Russians.... erm, Iranians.
That scene pretty much summed up Kira's character. For years she was an active resistance member who lived and breathed the fight against the Cardassian occupation. The Resistance wasn't about bureaucracy, it was about getting the job done.
DS9 has clearly been referred to as both...
I still maintain that "Star Base" directly implies Military or Fleet operations, and "Space Station" implies a "we got it here/shopping mall/fueling-repair facility", which in fact DS9 is. There is no permanent or regular Fleet of any kind stationed there, and I don't think I could call ONE military vessel, a viable Military Presence.
I still maintain that "Star Base" directly implies Military or Fleet operations, and "Space Station" implies a "we got it here/shopping mall/fueling-repair facility", which in fact DS9 is. There is no permanent or regular Fleet of any kind stationed there, and I don't think I could call ONE military vessel, a viable Military Presence.
Most likely there are many different kinds of starbases out there. Not all of them have to be gigantic battle fortresses. Some starbases may be multipurpose, other specific purposes, while others could be simply ports of call for passing Starfleet (and civilian) vessels in a given sector.
Yes, and an important aspect of the character was how she changed over the years to embrace Starfleet and the Federation, and learned to work within the new hierarchy. She ends up being a Federation representative to the Cardassian resistance, and then finally takes over from Sisko as commander of the station.
It was headquarters of the Ninth Fleet from the wedding episode onwards, with Martok as Supreme Commander.
I think people are getting caught up in terminology here. "Starbase" is used exactly how the writers use it; sometimes it is referring to a specific facility, "Starbase 11", other times it's just used to mean what the name implies - a generic base in the stars, analogous with "space station".
kkozoriz1
Fleet Captain
It may be a similar situation to Farpoint Station, a Starfleet base on a non-member planet. How many U.S. bases are in foreign countries? If the lease for the base is not renewed the base closes although there's noting preventing the local government from reopening it for their own purposes.
Saquist
Commodore
Sure.
Thats the part that makes so sense.
Why allow Star Fleet to Ad minster the station?
Repairs to station doesn't take Administration
Protecting the Planet from the Cardassians doesn't require Administration in fact it's a violation of the Prime Directive since they aren't Federation member and their is more than enough evidence to show that the Federation doesn't interfere in other cultures EVEN when they're requesting membership.
Not even the Planet gave up it's own Administrations for Star Fleet protection and repairs...so why give the Station to Federation Administration. It's bizarre.
Why?
It's never said the Federation was signed the station. Infact in "DAX" Sisko says that the station technically belongs to the Bajorans and apparently the Klaistron IV extradition enforcers knew that which is why they tried to kidnap Dax from the station in the first place. They then bring the matter before Bajoran Law. In the episode where Kira suggest that Sisko is handling the request from asylum from the Terrorist improperly...at in line line with the Episode "DAX" is perfectly legitimate. A Bajoran Station, a Bajoran civilian, Bajoran law.
Yet those are USAF bases...manned by airforce men and women controlled by all airforce men and women. Are telling me those bases allow the local populations military to have run of the base and even a second in command of the base with foreign military handling security and such as is in DS9? Are you saying they are THAT similar that I can simple shrug this off for the sake of example from reality?
Both things would be expected to take some payment, though. Letting Starfleet administrate is the payment. They wouldn't come otherwise, quoting their laws and other excuses to justify their fundamental disinterest.
What Kira did was find out how limited her options were. She got the space station assignment because her superiors wanted her off the planet. She had nobody in her own chain of command to complain to, and nobody in the Starfleet chain of command, either. It was a good move to play one against the other there; she had nothing to lose and everything to win. Being banished back to the planet would have been a step up; being brought to the attention of Starfleet, becoming a mandatory pain in their asses, would have been a step down the path of getting rid of Starfleet.
Timo Saloniemi
Perhaps Deep Space Nine was a Starfleet starbase on a Bajoran space station. 
The -base would refer to Starfleet's assets (crew and equipment under the command of Sisko) and the station to the physical construct, which was Bajoran.
The -base would refer to Starfleet's assets (crew and equipment under the command of Sisko) and the station to the physical construct, which was Bajoran.
Of course they do, everything required admin. Besides, the Bajorans didn't have the resources to repair it on their own, they didn't even have industrial replicators.
I ask again, why wouldn't they let Starfleet run the station for them? What do they lose? They still own the station, they can ask the Federation to leave any time they want, and they seem to have jurisdiction over the civilian aspects of the station, albeit working within Federation guidelines. Even this isn't particularly strange, since the Bajoran government wants to join the Federation ASAP. If they have their way, the whole Bajoran militia would be absorbed into Starfleet anyway, so it makes no difference at all.
Bajor is depicted as being a total shambles in Emissary, on the verge of civil war, with rival factions vying for control. Perhaps that's another reason for bringing in Starfleet? Giving it to a third party to run depoliticises the station.
Well I'm not sure that's the case, given that they came at the request of the Bajoran government. Their presence is a tacit warning for the Cardassians, not part of a specific defence pact. Remember it doesn't stop the Cardassians attacking the station in Emissary, and Starfleet are forced to vacate the station in The Siege (though Sisko goes rogue).
It's one tiny space station in orbit of the planet! It's not supposed to be particularly important, but seems to be used by Starfleet as their base in the Bajoran system. Think of it as an embassy if you like. Even Starfleet isn't too fussed, given that it's manned by a guy who spent three years designing shipyards at Utopia Planitia (who doesn't want to be there), a couple of junior officers, and the transporter chief from the Enterprise-D.
It's only the unexpected discovery of the wormhole that makes the station important, and then it's even more reason to have a Federation presence, otherwise any number of hostile races would try to take control of the wormhole. It's just a little warning, a deterrent. If you mess with Bajor, you better be prepared to face the Federation as well.
But under a Starfleet chain of command. The series is inconsistent with the legal aspects - Odo is constantly moaning about having to follow namby-pamby Federation rules about needing "evidence" to lock someone up... but as you say in Dax, they use the loophole that it's under Bajoran law, not Federation.
But these aren't contradictory; they fall under Bajoran law and legal jurisdiction, but with an added layer of Federation procedure. But again, they'd have to come into line with that anyway when they joined the Federation.
Well I know that USAF bases in the UK during the Cold War always had an RAF liaison officer, much like Kira. And they were still subject to UK law, going back to the previous point.
Saquist
Commodore
That's not much of an explanation for "administration."
Authority.
Perhaps. It would have been nice if they had said as much though.
How does stepping in between the Bajorans and Cardassians, not violate the Prime Directive? It's not a Federation Planet.
But it's still no Federation territory. It's not a Federation system or a Federation world...TNG sets the precedent that conflicts between other governments is interference. I question the producers brain storming on this project.
Negative: It wasn't a Bajoran Law Loophole. It was a Loophole between the two. They have an Extradition Treaty with Star Fleet but not with Bajor. That establishes that the Station is under Bajoran Law...Sisko shouldn't have been giving asylum to anyone...he doesn't have the authority.
Were they part of the Command staff of that USAF base?
How so? If you own a company, and you contract a management group to run the place, you in no way lose any control, authority or ownership of the company.
DS9 never ceased to be Bajorian property. When the Bajorian government instructed Starfleet to abandon the station at one point, their legal footing to do so was firm.
But Bajor is apparently a Federation ally.
And what TNG establish is that the Federation would not involve themselves with a Klingon civil war, because the Federation considered that an internal Klingon problem. In the same episode, the Federation did (by treaty) come to the Klingon's aid when it became obious that the Klingon were being attack from without. This was not considered interference. Nor a violation of the prime directive.
Worf's bother Kurn was the first officer of the Enterprise Dee and part of the command staff at one time, while never ceasing to be a Klingon officer.
Fastest modern example I could find is the NATO base, Joint Command Lisbon based in Oeiras, Portugal. The current commander is Lieutenant General Philippe Stoltz, French Army. His deputy commander is Lieutenant General Philippe Stoltz, Spanish Air Force. The base's previous commander was Vice Admiral Bruce W. Clingan, United States Navy, who had the same deputy commander.
Dialog during the first episode indicate that in the eyes of the Bajorian government, Major Kira was only an attaché. However for her to give lawful orders to Starfleet personnel (and Sisko orders to Bajorian militia aboard the station) there must have been a agreement between the Federation and Bajorian governments, at least a limited military alliance.
That would make it all legal on paper.
Saquist
Commodore
I didn't say ownership. I believe I said Authority.
the power or right to give orders or make decisions;
If you're not in command of the station then Bajorans aren't making the decisions. I didn't think this was a hard concept to understand.
What episode?
Firstly I don't remember them coming to the Klingon's aid they just "mined" the border to detect cloaked ships.
Secondly it was noted that destroying the array would result in a change of power verses the Occampans and a violation of the prime directive. So that alone sets the precedent of interfering with the balance of power between two warp civilizations is illegal.
Fascinating.
Shouldn't there have been some sort of Treaty like NATO?
