I saw this post in or on the Facebook, forgot by whom, but/and couldn't get it out of my mind:
Last edited:
was Kruge the good guy?
- Thread starter Shat Happens
- Start date
The road to hell is paved with good intentions, etc. etc. Kruge could've blown the whistle but decided he'd rather go kill people in cold blood instead.
Or really, not-so-good intentions. Kruge wasn't interested in simply stopping the Federation from finishing the Genesis project, he wanted to steal it so he (and maybe the Klingon government) could harness its destructive power himself.
Or really, not-so-good intentions. Kruge wasn't interested in simply stopping the Federation from finishing the Genesis project, he wanted to steal it so he (and maybe the Klingon government) could harness its destructive power himself.
I think Christopher Lloyd is underrated in this role, he usually receives criticism simply for being Christopher Lloyd. But I think he does a great job of threading the needle over his motivations - whether he's truly doing it for the good of his people or if he's mostly looking out for his own personal glory.
The way Lloyd plays it, you can believe it's genuinely both, that he is truly disgusted with the Federation and he wants to defend his nation, and that he also sees this as his big opportunity to become his people's champion. And you get a sense that in Klingon culture that isn't as much of a contradiction as a human would see it. It's a tricky thing and I don't think just anyone would've been able to pull it off like Lloyd did.
The way Lloyd plays it, you can believe it's genuinely both, that he is truly disgusted with the Federation and he wants to defend his nation, and that he also sees this as his big opportunity to become his people's champion. And you get a sense that in Klingon culture that isn't as much of a contradiction as a human would see it. It's a tricky thing and I don't think just anyone would've been able to pull it off like Lloyd did.
It would certainly be interesting to see a version of Kruge more in the vein of Worf or Gorkon...someone who couldn't countenance the Federation having a WMD such as the Genesis Device but who also didn't trust his own military to have it without abusing it. If Kruge had hijacked Grissom but treated the crew reasonably humanely, and hadn't ordered the murder of one of the prisoners, it would be hard to regard him as a villain versus a patriot.
I could point to the fact that Kruge didn't actually want Grissom destroyed, but based on the rest of his portrayal throughout the film, it's hard for me to believe that the Kruge we saw on screen had any intention of allowing anyone to survive once he got whatever data he could find regarding Genesis.
I could point to the fact that Kruge didn't actually want Grissom destroyed, but based on the rest of his portrayal throughout the film, it's hard for me to believe that the Kruge we saw on screen had any intention of allowing anyone to survive once he got whatever data he could find regarding Genesis.
Kruge explicitly says he wants Genesis as "the secret of ultimate power!" Later he says "I've come a long way for the power of Genesis." It's obvious that he wants to claim the weapon for his own use. This is also a guy who blew up his own lover because she saw the blueprints, and who disintegrated his own gunner for making a mistake. It's incredibly disingenuous to suggest he was only motivated by self-defense. His invocations of "galactic peace" are obviously meant to be interpreted as propaganda and hypocrisy.
I mean, let's face it, as fun as Lloyd's performance was, Kruge was one of the most exaggeratedly, blatantly Evil characters in the Trek franchise. He killed people on a whim, tortured people, murdered Kirk's son to make a point, and said it was exhilarating to be on a dying planet. He stopped just short of literally twirling his mustache. The movie went to great lengths to demonstrate that this was a villain so heinous and irredeemable that even James T. Kirk, the man who chose to seek peace with the Horta and the Gorn despite the violence they inflicted, was driven to the point of saying "I have had enough of you" and kicking him into a chasm (though he did at least offer his hand first). Kruge is no more the good guy than Hans Gruber was.
I mean, let's face it, as fun as Lloyd's performance was, Kruge was one of the most exaggeratedly, blatantly Evil characters in the Trek franchise. He killed people on a whim, tortured people, murdered Kirk's son to make a point, and said it was exhilarating to be on a dying planet. He stopped just short of literally twirling his mustache. The movie went to great lengths to demonstrate that this was a villain so heinous and irredeemable that even James T. Kirk, the man who chose to seek peace with the Horta and the Gorn despite the violence they inflicted, was driven to the point of saying "I have had enough of you" and kicking him into a chasm (though he did at least offer his hand first). Kruge is no more the good guy than Hans Gruber was.
Edward James Olmos was also up for the role.
Apparently Christopher Lloyd was chosen because he was "more intimidating". That's gotta be a typo. Is it even humanly possible to be MORE intimidating than EJO? I mean, we've all seen nuBSG...
Last edited:
Kruge was a Klingon, and he thought like one. The Klingons' mindset was such that they would see Genesis as a destructive force, because that is how they would use it: for annihilation. The formation of new life would be an afterthought for them.
So in light of that, while Kruge was not a good guy, his motivations were at least understandable. And remember, he only killed or ordered the death of a handful of people: his own gunner, for violating his orders to disable the Grissom, the crew of that scout ship (including his own operative), and David Marcus. Considering that Genesis could exterminate every living thing on Quo'nos, that's sort of understandable.
So in light of that, while Kruge was not a good guy, his motivations were at least understandable. And remember, he only killed or ordered the death of a handful of people: his own gunner, for violating his orders to disable the Grissom, the crew of that scout ship (including his own operative), and David Marcus. Considering that Genesis could exterminate every living thing on Quo'nos, that's sort of understandable.
Last edited:
Which is the point. This was before TNG retconned the Klingons into noble warriors. At the time the movie came out, Klingons were The Bad Guys, period. "Thinks like a Klingon" meant "is cruel, murderous, and treacherous."
Oh, come on, that's just being disingenuous. He wanted live prisoners so he could torture them for information! As DonIago said, it's absurd to think he wouldn't have killed them as soon as he got what he wanted from them. I mean, he killed Valkris, his own ally and lover, because she just glimpsed the Genesis file. Not to mention killing the entire crew of the freighter she was on, just because they happened to be there. So obviously he intended to murder everyone who knew anything about Genesis -- but only after he got what he wanted from them. And he didn't care how many innocent bystanders died as collateral damage.
This. Kruge was not a hero. He killed people in the name of his mission to secure knowledge to ensure their superiority over the Federation.
Yeah, I corrected for that. My point was, Kruge, had he had Genesis, would use it to destroy or enslave the enemies of the Empire. Therefore, he assumed that the Federation would as well. So in his own eyes, perhaps, his actions were justified. He simply didn't understand that the Federation had no interest in using Genesis to destroy, but rather to create.
and like the gunner, because she failed to follow orders (which were to not look at the information).
You can say that about virtually any villain in a story. That doesn't equal being "the good guy." People often do terrible things to other people in the belief that it's justified. Heroism or villainy isn't about the intention, it's about the actions and their impact on other people. That's why many fictional villains are tragic figures with sympathetic motives, like Mr. Freeze trying to save his dying wife or Thanos wanting to end poverty and hunger. What makes them the bad guys is that they feel those causes make it "justified" to hurt and kill others. The means inform the ends. They believe it's justified, but they're wrong, and we as viewers are supposed to have the moral clarity to understand that.
Riiight, because murdering people who don't follow orders is heroic. We all remember how Kirk heroically dealt with Spock's mutiny in "The Menagerie" by chopping off his head, and how Starfleet nobly punished Kirk & crew for stealing the Enterprise by burning them at the stake.
Of course villains have their own codes and reasons for their actions, but we're not supposed to agree with them.
Kruge's villainy is perhaps exacerbated by the fact that he didn't even care enough about his hostages to regard them as anything more than interchangeable pawns to gain leverage over Kirk. He didn't kill David Marcus on purpose; he just ordered one of the prisoners killed and explicitly stated that he didn't care which one. Indeed, if David hadn't intervened, Saavik (or the guard himself) might have been killed (if you want to believe that David got in the way of Saavik's own intention to disarm him).
Saavik may even have been able to take the guard in a fight.
I believe I already stated that he was the bad guy. Understanding evil should be the first step toward defeating it. Yes, too many people have decided to coexist with it instead. But I am not one of them.
I'd say Kruge was convinced he was right... but he also wanted Genesis for "the secret to Ultimate Power". So I would say he wasn't a good guy. His actions also ensured the peace talks between the Federation and the Klingons would completely fall apart. He wanted power for his own personal gain and he deliberately sabotaged peace.
Yes--superiority in the form of a terraforming device he wanted to pervert into a weapon of genocide. Any man thinking like that has no shadings of grey, no fence to sit on. He wanted to commit mass murder against the Federation, not make habitable worlds for his species.
When I was in High School I took a lot of foreign languages, which included, de rigeur, foreign culture and history. In French class I learned about the revolutionary hero Vercingetorix, who fought against the Romans invading Gaul. In Latin I learned about the criminal Vercingetorix who fought against the Roman armies occupying Gaul.
No doubt Kruge was something of a hero to the Klingons, or fashioned into a hero after the fact, although I always liked Vonda McIntyre's take that he was more like a privateer. IMO, he was shortsighted and not very bright. On the most basic level, if you've got a crew of 19 and you're killing them for pissing you off, you're going to run into problems sooner than later.
No doubt Kruge was something of a hero to the Klingons, or fashioned into a hero after the fact, although I always liked Vonda McIntyre's take that he was more like a privateer. IMO, he was shortsighted and not very bright. On the most basic level, if you've got a crew of 19 and you're killing them for pissing you off, you're going to run into problems sooner than later.
Similar threads
