News USS Dauntless

[AnimationAdmiral]

There's nothing in Hope and Fear that says the Dauntless's QS doesn't need benemite, but there's also nothing that says it does need it. So the Prodigy and Discovery writers aren't technically wrong saying it's needed, as Hope and Fear doesn't say either way.

I agree with this assessment — it seems pretty clear that Voyager writers just expanded on how quantum slipstream works as they tested it. In the second episode it appears, Starfleet fine tuned it — like discovering Warp 1 then figuring out how to go Warp 9 — but I doubt VOY invented two entirely different versions of it with radically different designs (which wouldn’t make a whole lot of sense.) Otherwise, that would be like assuming any new warp drive doesn’t use dilithium unless they specifically state so in the episode.

 

[Deks]

I wouldn't trust the official website database, they get things wrong.

It wouldn't be a stretch to think it is a Dauntless class ship.
It has the same name, and pretty much copied hull geometry and deflector dish (with some changes, probably to accommodate for Warp drive too)... and a Quantum Slipstream drive... though, one wouldn't expect of SF to give it an NCC designation if it was a first of its class... but instead an NX one (like the Protostar).

 

[Deks]

I agree with this assessment — it seems pretty clear that Voyager writers just expanded on how quantum slipstream works as they tested it. In the second episode it appears, Starfleet fine tuned it — like discovering Warp 1 then figuring out how to go Warp 9 — but I doubt VOY invented two entirely different versions of it with radically different designs (which wouldn’t make a whole lot of sense.) Otherwise, that would be like assuming any new warp drive doesn’t use dilithium unless they specifically state so in the episode.

Here's the thing... VOY crew DID in fact come up with a radically different design.
The v1 of the QS drive had several differences vs the v2 as seen in Timeless.

v1 QS properties:
Top speed = 300 Ly's per hour (this probably cannot be sustained indefinitely, but by shorter periods even by the fake Dauntless - I'd imagine anywhere between 12 hrs to a day - possibly more because the fake Dauntless was specifically designed for Slipstream).
Sustainable long term cruising speed = 666.666 Ly's per day (to traverse 60 000 Ly's in 3 months).
On VOY, v1 produced quantum stresses on the hull which prevented Voyager itself from being longer than 1 hour in Slipstream.

No mention of Benemite Crystals for v1.

v2 QS properties:
Redesigned to include Borg Technology, Benemite crystals and quantum matrix.
Top speed = 10 000 Ly's per minute (judging by what we saw in 'Timeless' because troubles didn't start happening until 17 seconds into the flight per the dialogue - after that, there is no more than 45 seconds or so before future Kim managed to to shut down the drive).

In this version, the quantum stresses weren't a problem, but as it turned out, VOY's computer couldn't calculate the phase changes of the Slipstream threshold as it was forming - which effectively lead to its icy demise in an alternate timeline.

At any rate, benemite crystals are a crucial part of V2 QS drive... probably because it also includes more alien technology in the mix and is a more refined version vs the first one (like someone else mentioned, an equivalent of jumping from Warp 1 to Warp 9 in months).

The v1 was never stated it needed benemite crystals... and simple modifications on VOY at the time were enough to make the technology viable for VOY (apart from the Quantum Stresses).

At any rate, I still maintain SF could have made use of V1 without the Benemite Crystals to replace the Warp drive for fast travel times.

 

[AnimationAdmiral]

Here's the thing... VOY crew DID in fact come up with a radically different design.
The v1 of the QS drive had several differences vs the v2 as seen in Timeless.

v1 QS properties:
Top speed = 300 Ly's per hour (this probably cannot be sustained indefinitely, but by shorter periods even by the fake Dauntless - I'd imagine anywhere between 12 hrs to a day - possibly more because the fake Dauntless was specifically designed for Slipstream).
Sustainable long term cruising speed = 666.666 Ly's per day (to traverse 60 000 Ly's in 3 months).
On VOY, v1 produced quantum stresses on the hull which prevented Voyager itself from being longer than 1 hour in Slipstream.

No mention of Benemite Crystals for v1.

v2 QS properties:
Redesigned to include Borg Technology, Benemite crystals and quantum matrix.
Top speed = 10 000 Ly's per minute (judging by what we saw in 'Timeless' because troubles didn't start happening until 17 seconds into the flight per the dialogue - after that, there is no more than 45 seconds or so before future Kim managed to to shut down the drive).

In this version, the quantum stresses weren't a problem, but as it turned out, VOY's computer couldn't calculate the phase changes of the Slipstream threshold as it was forming - which effectively lead to its icy demise in an alternate timeline.

At any rate, benemite crystals are a crucial part of V2 QS drive... probably because it also includes more alien technology in the mix and is a more refined version vs the first one (like someone else mentioned, an equivalent of jumping from Warp 1 to Warp 9 in months).

The v1 was never stated it needed benemite crystals... and simple modifications on VOY at the time were enough to make the technology viable for VOY (apart from the Quantum Stresses).

At any rate, I still maintain SF could have made use of V1 without the Benemite Crystals to replace the Warp drive for fast travel times.

I still think of it as the difference between warp 1 and warp 9. As for the added requirement of benamite crystals being a retcon by the VOY writers — we’ll never know, but that would account for them not mentioning it the first time, at least out of universe.

 

[Deks]

I still think of it as the difference between warp 1 and warp 9. As for the added requirement of benamite crystals being a retcon by the VOY writers — we’ll never know, but that would account for them not mentioning it the first time, at least out of universe.

From my point of view, it would be beneficial to mention that V1 doesn't need benemite crystals while V2 in fact does (because its a redesign of the technology which also resulted in much faster speeds).
That way, Trek could still make use of V1 on SF ships which have reinforced Structural Integrity to protect against quantum stresses.
It gives SF access to faster than (existing) Warp speeds while keeping V2 in the mix which can be used sporadically to preserve benemite crystals (we could say that when VOY returned, SF did extensive research into benemite crystals which allowed them to only degrade after being used, not all the time).

 

[Tuskin38]

It wouldn't be a stretch to think it is a Dauntless class ship.

Oh I agree. I'm just saying they have been wrong in the past.

The v1 of the QS drive had several differences vs the v2 as seen in Timeless.

You really can't trust the speed differences as being something the writers intended to differentiate the two versions. FTL and even Impulse speed in Star Trek runs on the speed of plot a lot.

And again, there's no evidence that 'V1' doesn't use Benemite crystals. You're just speculating based on the absence of facts. Our only other examples of QS use benemite crystals, so it's not a stretch to say the one on the dauntless used them too.

 

[Deks]

You really can't trust the speed differences as being something the writers intended to differentiate the two versions. FTL and even Impulse speed in Star Trek runs on the speed of plot a lot.

My point was the speed isn't the only difference between the two versions.
No one mentioned a quantum matrix, borg technology or benemite crystals in 'hope and fear' (mainly because they didn't exist most likely)... plus, there was an issue with Quantum stresses on VOY hull.

So there are multiple differences between the two versions of QS technology which suggests V2 was a more extensive overhaul of the technology which incorporated use of Benamite Crystals (in a similar way that Dilithium Crystals are used to focus M/AM reactions, Benamite crystals probably do a similar thing to achieve much higher velocities beyond what V1 could have).

And again, there's no evidence that 'V1' doesn't use Benamite crystals. You're just speculating based on the absence of facts. Our only other examples of QS use benemite crystals, so it's not a stretch to say the one on the dauntless used them too.

No, but we also can't assume that just because V2 uses Benamite crystals that v1 used them too.
You'd think a detail like that would have been mentioned by someone in 'Hope and Fear'.

 

[F. King Daniel]

My point was the speed isn't the only difference between the two versions.
No one mentioned a quantum matrix, borg technology or benemite crystals in 'hope and fear' (mainly because they didn't exist most likely)... plus, there was an issue with Quantum stresses on VOY hull.

So there are multiple differences between the two versions of QS technology which suggests V2 was a more extensive overhaul of the technology which incorporated use of Benamite Crystals (in a similar way that Dilithium Crystals are used to focus M/AM reactions, Benamite crystals probably do a similar thing to achieve much higher velocities beyond what V1 could have).



No, but we also can't assume that just because V2 uses Benamite crystals that v1 used them too.
You'd think a detail like that would have been mentioned by someone in 'Hope and Fear'.

Why are we treating Benamite crystals more seriously than we do the Enterprise's warp drive, which originally ran on lithium crystals not dilithium?

 

[Deks]

Why are we treating Benamite crystals more seriously than we do the Enterprise's warp drive, which originally ran on lithium crystals not dilithium?

In Enterprise case, the crystals already existed and were mentioned... they just changed the name from 'lithium' to 'dilithium'.

In case of QS, v1 had various differences compared to v2... and use of benamite crystals was never mentioned in v1 to begin with.

 

[DaveyNY]

Perhaps they were never able to overcome the stress factor on the hull with v1, even with stronger structural integrity fields.
(perhaps a SIF needed increasingly more power than the ship was able to supply to extend the range)

v2 was the answer to not needing to create ever stronger SIF fields.

 

[Deks]

Perhaps they were never able to overcome the stress factor on the hull with v1, even with stronger structural integrity fields.
(perhaps a SIF needed increasingly more power than the ship was able to supply to extend the range)

v2 was the answer to not needing to create ever stronger SIF fields.

That would work for VOY... but not Starfleet as a whole (which has a lot more resources at its disposal so they could find a workaround).
Besides, stronger SIF's would have been an asset considering in how many troubles (fights, anomalies, etc.) ships gotten themselves into.

 

[DaveyNY]

That would work for VOY... but not Starfleet as a whole (which has a lot more resources at its disposal so they could find a workaround).
Besides, stronger SIF's would have been an asset considering in how many troubles (fights, anomalies, etc.) ships gotten themselves into.

I'm sure there comes a point where the power needed to create ever stronger SIF's is no longer viable.
Especially if the field has to constantly increase to compensate for the experimental drive's ever increasing stress on the hull.
That could be exactly why they came up with Version Two.
The energy to run both the Drive and the SIF's with v1 became unsustainable.

 

[LazyReader]

They scanned Dauntless from stem to stern, to the nuts and bolts... so building a substitute.
Biggest like is they copied the ships signature bridge. Reminds me of a Japanese house or lantern...

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

Well, we’ve seen bridges from different starship classes that were all practically identical. The Enterprise-A, Excelsior, Enterprise-B, Righteous, Prometheus, and Nova all had the same general layout, as did the Saratoga, earlier Prometheus, and Odyssey; Hathaway, Enterprise-C, and Pasteur; Refit Enterprise, Reliant, Grissom, earlier Saratoga, Yorktown, and earlier Enterprise-A, and so on.

This is all because they re-used the same set of course, but it COULD also mean that there is some general starship bridge types that are standardized through fleet history. Inasmuch as Arturis scanned and plumbed Voyager’s computers to create the Dauntless facsimile in the first place, he could have copied her bridge ironically from a known bridge layout. When The Utopia Planitia nerds built their Dauntless, they simply brought up the bridge design Arturis copied, plugged it in, and called it a day so they could head out for synthale and wings.

Mark

 

[Gepard]

They're similar, but not the same.

All this CGI that can do anything and they make a bridge that looks like it reused stock parts from the TMP bridge set.

 

[Deks]

All this CGI that can do anything and they make a bridge that looks like it reused stock parts from the TMP bridge set.

In fairness, VOY did it first in 'Hope and Fear' with the fake Dauntless.
Starfleet probably just directly copied as much of the fake Dauntless as it could and then modified the rest to make their own 'real' Dauntless.
Why bother redesigning a bridge if the original fake design already had one which was tailored to that ship design?

Leave the redesign for the new class of Dauntless class ships that will follow this one.
In the interim, the fastest way of getting a working Warp and QS ship was to copy as much of the fake Dauntless as possible from the original scans the crew took of the ship from working on it.

 

[Vale]

I agree with this assessment — it seems pretty clear that Voyager writers just expanded on how quantum slipstream works as they tested it. In the second episode it appears, Starfleet fine tuned it — like discovering Warp 1 then figuring out how to go Warp 9 — but I doubt VOY invented two entirely different versions of it with radically different designs (which wouldn’t make a whole lot of sense.) Otherwise, that would be like assuming any new warp drive doesn’t use dilithium unless they specifically state so in the episode.

Headcanon/ass-pull explanation here – given how the 32nd century seems so dependent on dilithium, much more so than we see in the 24th century, I assume that due to resource depletion etc by the 32nd century they're making more frequent use of low tech* drives that are built for simplicity, durability, and repairability, rather than more technologically sophisticated high tech* drives that require constant maintenance and adjustment. Think classic 1960s cars that can be repaired in almost any garage in the world and will keep going when half the car is missing, rather than a top-of-the-range Tesla that will refuse to start if a software update fails. You can make a highly advanced warp drive that is less dependent on dilithium or a highly advanced quantum slipstream drive that is less dependent on benemite crystals, but it's much, much harder, especially for civilians like Book.

*Relatively speaking, of course.

 

[Deks]

Headcanon/ass-pull explanation here – given how the 32nd century seems so dependent on dilithium, much more so than we see in the 24th century, I assume that due to resource depletion etc by the 32nd century they're making more frequent use of low tech* drives that are built for simplicity, durability, and repairability, rather than more technologically sophisticated high tech* drives that require constant maintenance and adjustment. Think classic 1960s cars that can be repaired in almost any garage in the world and will keep going when half the car is missing, rather than a top-of-the-range Tesla that will refuse to start if a software update fails. You can make a highly advanced warp drive that is less dependent on dilithium or a highly advanced quantum slipstream drive that is less dependent on benemite crystals, but it's much, much harder, especially for civilians like Book.

*Relatively speaking, of course.

You know what the thing is?
By the 25th or 26th century, QS drive (v2), Coaxial drive, Transwarp, etc. would have been considered 'low tech' by then.
100 years is an INCREDIBLY long amount of time when you consider the fact what kind of technology WE have in real life (nevermind the UFP with its hyper advanced technology).

They would have been incredibly well understood and tested to death types of technologies and improved upon so many times that its not even funny.
In fact, by the 25th or 26th century, SF would have likely made some kind of alltogether DIFFERENT type of FTL technology that doesn't need dilithium/MAM and is far faster than anything.

The way Disco portrayed stuff is that nothing of the kind actually happened... which is extremely unrealistic.
Massive changes would have happened since VOY ended culminating in various breakthroughs in not just engine technology but also power sources (to name a few).

The fact that Disco writers chose not to advance anything tells you more about their lack of imagination and writing ability than anything else... but we are also now stuck with the premise that Trek is no better than Star Wars... aka, stagnating technology for extremely long periods of time.

 

[Dukhat]

The way Disco portrayed stuff is that nothing of the kind actually happened... which is extremely unrealistic. Massive changes would have happened since VOY ended culminating in various breakthroughs in not just engine technology but also power sources (to name a few).

The fact that Disco writers chose not to advance anything tells you more about their lack of imagination and writing ability than anything else... but we are also now stuck with the premise that Trek is no better than Star Wars... aka, stagnating technology for extremely long periods of time.

Well, the 32nd century of DSC was created before other shows like Prodigy which show other forms of propulsion which makes standard warp drive obsolete. The result of which being that DSC isn't in continuity with these other shows (something that CBS cares extremely little about), and the only rational way to explain it all is that any new space drive technology shown that's superior to standard warp drive must only be temporary or shown to be ultimately faulty, just so continuity can be maintained with season 3 of DSC. Which, as you say, is extremely unrealistic.

 

[Vale]

You know what the thing is?
By the 25th or 26th century, QS drive (v2), Coaxial drive, Transwarp, etc. would have been considered 'low tech' by then.
100 years is an INCREDIBLY long amount of time when you consider the fact what kind of technology WE have in real life (nevermind the UFP with its hyper advanced technology).

They would have been incredibly well understood and tested to death types of technologies and improved upon so many times that its not even funny.
In fact, by the 25th or 26th century, SF would have likely made some kind of alltogether DIFFERENT type of FTL technology that doesn't need dilithium/MAM and is far faster than anything.

The way Disco portrayed stuff is that nothing of the kind actually happened... which is extremely unrealistic.
Massive changes would have happened since VOY ended culminating in various breakthroughs in not just engine technology but also power sources (to name a few).

The fact that Disco writers chose not to advance anything tells you more about their lack of imagination and writing ability than anything else... but we are also now stuck with the premise that Trek is no better than Star Wars... aka, stagnating technology for extremely long periods of time.

I agree entirely. Even conventional warp drive seems to be going through a technological revolution in the late 24th century, and was already starting to exceed the informal "warp drive speeds increase by a factor of four every century" rule that had held from the NX-01 right through to the Enterprise-D... and then suddenly Discovery shows that, floaty nacelles, smart matter widgets, and obnoxious PC-Gamer-aesthetic blue LED lighting aside, ships of the 32nd century are pretty much the same as those in the 23rd century.

Well, the 32nd century of DSC was created before other shows like Prodigy which show other forms of propulsion which makes standard warp drive obsolete.

Voyager in particular thinks this is certainly an interesting perspective.