The Wrath of La'an

[fireproof78]

Except it shows he knows who Khan is when in "Space Seed", he needed Spock's PowerPoint presentation to inform him.

Nope. Kirk had general ideas of the period of time, just not all of them.


KIRK: He was the best of the tyrants and the most dangerous. They were supermen, in a sense. Stronger, braver, certainly more ambitious, more daring.


Also, on my review, Kirk mentions 200 years of history Khan has to catch up on.

It's only a TV show.

Well, that ends that, right?

No point in engaging with the material.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Khan introduces himself as "Khan" and avoids giving his full name and any details about his past. Later at dinner Spock and Kirk press Khan with questions and opinions about his time period, Which effectively draws Khan out. Later in the briefing room it's Kirk who IDs "Khan" as Khan Noonien Singh. Kirk, Spock, McCoy and Scott are all familiar with the name and reputation of Khan Noonien Singh. I think Kirk knew what and maybe who he was dealing with from the get go,

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

Don't condemn the descendant of the ancestor's crimes, but don't acquit the ancestor because of the descendant's innocence.

Of course Kirk figured it out. Maybe not the moment Khan identified himself as "just Khan" (sort of like "plain, simple, Garak"), but he can certainly look things up as well as anybody else, assuming he even needed to.

 

[Okmyx]

I think Kirk knew what and maybe who he was dealing with from the get go

Why would he give Khan access to the entire ship's library? Seems like a huge breach of security for any unknown person, let alone someone who he already suspects?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Why would he give Khan access to the entire ship's library? Seems like a huge breach of security for any unknown person, let alone someone who he already suspects?

He's a good host.

 

[fireproof78]

Why would he give Khan access to the entire ship's library? Seems like a huge breach of security for any unknown person, let alone someone who he already suspects?

He says in the episode. It's a courtesy and that their guest has "200 years of history to catch up on."

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

The name Hitler barely existed before Adolf's dad.

IIRC, I read in this book that pre-WWII, there were quite a few Hitlers in the New York phone book, After Adolf, they all disappeared, changing their names to escape the stigma.

 

[Guy Gardener]

IIRC, I read in this book that pre-WWII, there were quite a few Hitlers in the New York phone book, After Adolf, they all disappeared, changing their names to escape the stigma.

This infamous family name was so uncommon during the European Renaissance that infamous prognosticator Nostradamus misspelled the 2nd antichrist's surname as Hister.

 

[Pauln6]

Singh is a hugely common name, apparently, it is the 6th most common surname in the world, according to surname distribution data from Forebears, used by more than 36 million people. Pretty much all Sikh men have Singh in their name and it's a common surname in India, the world's most populous nation, and among people of Indian descent. So it's ludicrous that people have a chip on their shoulder about someone called Singh. It might be stranger, culturally, for a woman to retain the name Singh, since they often adopt the name Kaur instead. I really can't fathom why the writers thought this was a good idea.

There were other genetic supermen. A single line of dialogue could have linked her to one of them with a rarer, more distinctive name.

What's interesting about SNW is that it is definitely in a different timeline to the one where TOS started even if it is still one where Pike is due to have his accident. That said, the timeline where TOS ended wasn't the same one where TOS started. Also, did the whole franchise jump to the same alternate timeline as DS9 after the incident with Gabriel Bell? The timeline it is in could run forwards from any time travel story set before 1999 or backwards from any time travel story in the future since it's only an assumption that the timeline the characters end up in had an identical past to the one they left behind.

 

[fireproof78]

I really can't fathom why the writers thought this was a good idea.

They didn't.

They thought it was a fan idea.

Not all fan ideas are good ones.

Also, did the whole franchise jump to the same alternate timeline as DS9 after the incident with Gabriel Bell? The timeline it is in could run forwards from any time travel story set before 1999 or backwards from any time travel story in the future since it's only an assumption that the timeline the characters end up in had an identical past to the one they left behind.

Probably all jumped when Kirk took those whales. Had dramatic implications.

 

[Pauln6]

Probably all jumped when Kirk took those whales. Had dramatic implications.

Gillian was more important to the timeline than anyone realised.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Singh is a hugely common name, apparently, it is the 6th most common surname in the world, according to surname distribution data from Forebears, used by more than 36 million people. Pretty much all Sikh men have Singh in their name and it's a common surname in India, the world's most populous nation, and among people of Indian descent. So it's ludicrous that people have a chip on their shoulder about someone called Singh. It might be stranger, culturally, for a woman to retain the name Singh, since they often adopt the name Kaur instead. I really can't fathom why the writers thought this was a good idea.

La'an's last name is "Noonien-Singh". That's probably the name folks have an issue with. It most likely comes from the Noonien-Singh Institute for Cultural Advancement, where her ancestor Khan was born and raised along with the rest of his cohort. I speculated it was founded by two individuals, Noonien and Singh. Perhaps all of Khan's cohort are "Noonien-Singhs" no matter what their actual ancestry is. There are women named "Singh" as well as non-Sikhs with the name. Khan's Sikh connection is specious at best.(McGivers sucks at her job) La'an appears to be of mixed ancestry as might be expected with three hundred years between Khan and herself.
How is it a bad idea? It's a name with a connection even casual fans can make and creates tension and drama for the character.

What's interesting about SNW is that it is definitely in a different timeline to the one where TOS started even if it is still one where Pike is due to have his accident. That said, the timeline where TOS ended wasn't the same one where TOS started. Also, did the whole franchise jump to the same alternate timeline as DS9 after the incident with Gabriel Bell? The timeline it is in could run forwards from any time travel story set before 1999 or backwards from any time travel story in the future since it's only an assumption that the timeline the characters end up in had an identical past to the one they left behind.

Same timeline until someone in charge says otherwise on or off screen. It's really that simple.

 

[Pauln6]

La'an's last name is "Noonien-Singh". That's probably the name folks have an issue with. It most likely comes from the Noonien-Singh Institute for Cultural Advancement, where her ancestor Khan was born and raised along with the rest of his cohort. I speculated it was founded by two individuals, Noonien and Singh. Perhaps all of Khan's cohort are "Noonien-Singhs" no matter what their actual ancestry is. There are women named "Singh" as well as non-Sikhs with the name. Khan's Sikh connection is specious at best.(McGivers sucks at her job) La'an appears to be of mixed ancestry as might be expected with three hundred years between Khan and herself.
How is it a bad idea? It's a name with a connection even casual fans can make and creates tension and drama for the character.

Same timeline until someone in charge says otherwise on or off screen. It's really that simple.

I believe that Sikhs adopt a family name and the name Singh as well, so most of them will be double-barrelled. Noonien Singh would be far less common than Singh, obviously, Roddenberry himself borrowed it from his friend Kim Noonien Singh.

I suppose I feel that after the misuse of Khan in Into Darkness, presuming that this kind of fan service would add something beneficial wasn't necessarily a given. They could have used Garth instead of Khan in Into Darkness and made it less of a rehash. Similarly, using one of the other genetic supermen would have meant that we didn't have to scratch our heads about Kirk or Spock's reaction to Khan in Space Seed.

They have already shown that Khan was not an adult in the 21st century and that the Eugenics Wars didn't take place in 1999, so if that was an intersection point in the same timeline, SNW is not the same timeline as Space Seed. It is likely the same timeline as Picard though, but that's the point I was making - The Naked Time, CotEoF, the Voyage Home, Yesterday's Enterprise, Past Tense, Trials & Tribbleations, All Good Things, First Contact, Year of Hell, Timeless, and Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad, all potentially shift the viewer into a different parallel timeline from where we started at the beginning of that episode (I say potentially because this is only true if the episode starts out in the universe that we watched in the previous episode and in the Harry Mudd episode, that seem unlikely and also it is implied that the Voyage Home is a closed loop). I think as viewers, we are supposed to assume that every other character everywhere else is the same as when we last saw them, even though we are in a different timeline but that doesn't have to be the case.

 

[fireproof78]

think as viewers, we are supposed to assume that every other character everywhere else is the same as when we last saw them, even though we are in a different timeline but that doesn't have to be the case.

I see no harm in assuming its all the same and backgrounders, like Travelers, Ageis, the Relativity, among others, all correct the divots.

I suppose I feel that after the misuse of Khan in Into Darkness, presuming that this kind of fan service would add something beneficial wasn't necessarily a given.

It's always assumed fan service is positive, no matter what. Familiarity is a preferred connection to new.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I believe that Sikhs adopt a family name and the name Singh as well, so most of them will be double-barrelled. Noonien Singh would be far less common than Singh, obviously, Roddenberry himself borrowed it from his friend Kim Noonien Singh.

Wiki says it can be used as a middle name or last name according to the instructions of Guru Gobind Singh. La'an's is hyphenated to the entire thing is a last name.

His friend is a mystery, there's a whole Reddit thread on it, with a name that's all over East Asia. Singh may be Wang or Wong. Noonien doesn't exit any where and is speculated to be everything from Noonan to Nguyen. The friend might be Anglo-Indian, Indo-Chinese or Chinese. Or might not exist at all.

I suppose I feel that after the misuse of Khan in Into Darkness, presuming that this kind of fan service would add something beneficial wasn't necessarily a given. They could have used Garth instead of Khan in Into Darkness and made it less of a rehash. Similarly, using one of the other genetic supermen would have meant that we didn't have to scratch our heads about Kirk or Spock's reaction to Khan in Space Seed.

He was used fine. Miscast, but used fine.
Kirk and Spock's reaction to Khan in Space Speed is "he might be one of those supermen" followed by some research showing he was and which one. Kirk and Scotty admitting some admiration for him. Spock is very taken aback by this.

They have already shown that Khan was not an adult in the 21st century and that the Eugenics Wars didn't take place in 1999, so if that was an intersection point in the same timeline, SNW is not the same timeline as Space Seed. It is likely the same timeline as Picard though, but that's the point I was making - The Naked Time, CotEoF, the Voyage Home, Yesterday's Enterprise, Past Tense, Trials & Tribbleations, All Good Things, First Contact, Year of Hell, Timeless, and Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad, all potentially shift the viewer into a different parallel timeline from where we started at the beginning of that episode (I say potentially because this is only true if the episode starts out in the universe that we watched in the previous episode and in the Harry Mudd episode, that seem unlikely and also it is implied that the Voyage Home is a closed loop). I think as viewers, we are supposed to assume that every other character everywhere else is the same as when we last saw them, even though we are in a different timeline but that doesn't have to be the case.

Nope, the episode "Tomorrow, Tomorrow and Tomorrow" establishes that changes were being made to a single timeline with no branching.

 

[DarthPipes]

It's confusing how they expect it to work with her and Kirk's backstory as a prequel to "Space Seed"

Good thing I don't really think of SNW as a prequel and more of a reboot.

Yeah, I think of the show as an AU as well because it doesn't match up with the show. Then again, TOS wasn't always a model of consistency either.

 

[Nerys Myk]

"Matching up" isn't really something TOS was worried about. Broad strokes.

 

[Pauln6]

Nope, the episode "Tomorrow, Tomorrow and Tomorrow" establishes that changes were being made to a single timeline with no branching.

Yeah, I struggle with the way Trek characters describe both time travel and transporters in dialogue and then show something completely different on screen and then in another episode, use a different visualisation for the same description.

I view changes to a timeline that we see in real time not as branching or overwriting but as jumping tracks and the changes are only noticed by people somehow shunted by the jump into their alternate selves. Present day Kirk is still alive in our timeline so La'an must have jumped tracks again either back to her own timeline (or one similar) otherwise present day Kirk would still be dead (I have only seen the episode once and I can't remember how it was described onscreen). But however you view it, If a timeline is 'changed' it can't be changed back. The presence of another time traveller just 'changes' it again and there will be a butterfly effect from that too (such as Loki being alive). The hope is just that the 'ripples' or branch are less bad than the last (like Year of Hell).

Times Arrow and Voyage Home probably don't change anything in the past as they are probably closed loops (such as Steve R remaining living a life in the past).

So, I suppose it's true to say the past with Tiny Khan definitely isn't SNW's past but it also isn't clear if their past is the same as TOS. Many things shown on screen, which are likely just sloppy writing suggest not but it is entirely possible that there is a direct line from changes made by Picard season two to SNW, which would mean we are still in the 'prime' timeline, just a different prime timeline to the Cage.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The Gorgeous Romulan is from TOS future history.

She made changes to the Eugenics war of the 1990s.

Thereafter the SNW Time line observes the Eugenics war as an Event from the 2050s.

Unless that vicious Romulan Minx was lying or crazy, this is what happened.

 

[Pauln6]

The Gorgeous Romulan is from TOS future history.

She made changes to the Eugenics war of the 1990s.

Thereafter the SNW Time line observes the Eugenics war as an Event from the 2050s.

Unless that vicious Romulan Minx was lying or crazy, this is what happened.

That's what happened in the timeline where Kirk died though. SNW can't be in that timeline because it was present day Kirk that died. His presence in the past saved the day. The mechanics only work if La'an jumps to parallel timeline, meets a parallel Kirk, and ends up back in her own (or similar) timeline with their own version of Kirk. If this timeline has the Eugenics war in the 2250s then it most definitely isn't the timeline from TOS.

Although the story logic may have been that Kirk wasn't protected by the first change and wasn't protected at the time of his death but that's really jumping tracks rather than a single timeline. If McCoy and Edith had died together, I'm not sure it would have made sense if McCoy had still been waiting for them at home. But then if Pirate McCoy beamed down after Edith's death...