Olives and feta cheese are two of the faces on my Mt. Rushmore of foods I hate. Remind me not to stop by your place for lunch.
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Olives and feta cheese are two of the faces on my Mt. Rushmore of foods I hate. Remind me not to stop by your place for lunch.
I might agree about the US, who was built with a slightly different slant from the start, but the part about the UK is silly.
Being British has nothing to do with a "set of ideals". What ideals? Full breakfasts and Sunday roasts? Rights and laws, as we understand them, a a common heritage of all western democracies and their spin-offs. Rights and laws have nothing to do with being British, just as they have nothing to do with being French, or German, or Italian.
Now, with the growing immigrant population and the consequent multi-ethnic landscape, being British (or French, German, etc) has also nothing to do with race or ethnicity, which is a very good thing in my opinion. While European countries are not as multicultural as the US, we are quickly reaching the point when nationality doesn't mean anything else beyond, well, being a citizen of a nation, without the baggage of ethical nationalism and xenophobia of the past. The setting is still a bit rocky, but I cannot see the trend reversing itself, so I'm quite optimistic about the future. I could be wrong, but I hope not.
Being British has nothing to do with a "set of ideals". What ideals? Full breakfasts and Sunday roasts? Rights and laws, as we understand them, a a common heritage of all western democracies and their spin-offs. Rights and laws have nothing to do with being British, just as they have nothing to do with being French, or German, or Italian.
Now, with the growing immigrant population and the consequent multi-ethnic landscape, being British (or French, German, etc) has also nothing to do with race or ethnicity, which is a very good thing in my opinion. While European countries are not as multicultural as the US, we are quickly reaching the point when nationality doesn't mean anything else beyond, well, being a citizen of a nation, without the baggage of ethical nationalism and xenophobia of the past. The setting is still a bit rocky, but I cannot see the trend reversing itself, so I'm quite optimistic about the future. I could be wrong, but I hope not.
I guess the Internet is much like that Salad Bowl idea that somebody tossed into the thread (Canadave 
) -- we're all our own ingreidents, on this forum, mixed together and displayed, on this forum... When talking about politics of course, when talking food TV and beer, we're all on the same page
'more or less'.
) -- we're all our own ingreidents, on this forum, mixed together and displayed, on this forum... When talking about politics of course, when talking food TV and beer, we're all on the same page'more or less'.
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Great post by the way.
Multicultural as we may be here in the US, there is still regionalism in the sense that you are describing. Some people are way too excitied about being from the South, or Texas, or New York City, or California, etc.
While there are certain places I'd rather live based on climate, hobbies, political leanings, etc. about the only thing that living in a suburb of Boston right now means is the fact that I have Massachusetts license plates.
I don't think local patriotism as you describe it, SmoothieX, is a bad thing. On the contrary. It's normal for people to identify with the place they think of as home and usually that's their local area/city/region first and country second. It's also often a lot less tainted than patriotism on a greater scale. For example, I have no problem waving the flag of my home city but I wouldn't wave the flag of my country.
As long as people don't overdo it and hold real prejudices as a result, it's fine.
As long as people don't overdo it and hold real prejudices as a result, it's fine.
Oh, it's not a problem if you don't identify with a specific place. I was speaking more generally.
I was similar, by the way, because we moved away from my home town when I was a child and I never quite felt at home at the new place. I moved back a few years ago and feel very much at home, now. I don't wave flags too often, anyway.
I was similar, by the way, because we moved away from my home town when I was a child and I never quite felt at home at the new place. I moved back a few years ago and feel very much at home, now. I don't wave flags too often, anyway.
You don't like FETA??
How can this be.. feta is perfection. Maybe you just haven't had the right feta. Maybe goats feta is too strong for you and you need to try the cows milk feta. Or maybe you had some namby pamby cow feta and it was too bland and salty for you and you need to try the goats feta. Maybe you just had those rubbery cubes that pass themselves off as feta but are more like wizened tofu in taste and texture. Have you had delicate, melt in mouth crumbled feta?
Well, I'm not very soft on the US either, because I feel that many Americans have substituted ethnic nationalism with political jingoism, a belief that the US political system is inherently superior and that all country should adopt it (cf. Temis). I know not everybody thinks that, before anyone accuses me of stereotyping.
Well, I don't think I can agree with that given my current avatar.
But more seriously, I am doing this because, beyond the historical significance which I find uplifting, the current anniversary has reminded me that my country can do pretty amazing things, instead of being the usual fuck-up. So it's kind of a retro-pride: wearing the tricolour to not because I think Italy is great, but to remind myself that Italy doesn't totally suck. Ok, that's pretty twisted and convoluted.
I know your position on national flag-waving (or, national-flag waving), but I think you Germans take national shyness a wee bit too far nowadays. I understand why, but it's time to get over past mishaps, I think. Especially because it let the fringes seize what should be your own. And that's not healthy, in my opinion, because it puts people that would like to identify with the German national symbols (which should be their right) before a choice: shut down their feelings, or be identified with the fringe. Either way, it's not a good idea.
It would be difficult eating one of your mates
There's no need to justify your avatar, iguana. From your posts it's clear that you not jingoistic in any way. Also, the risorgimento has a certain ring to it and you can watch Il Gattopardo to commemorate.
What I meant to say - and I realise I didn't word it too well - was that 'regionalism' is rather normal and often a stronger loyalty than the national one. I was thinking of the various nationalities in the UK and also of Italy, to be honest. Certain regions in France also come to mind. As long as that local patriotism stays positive I don't see a problem.
My potential flag waving was just a personal example and doesn't fully apply to a majority of Germans. Local patriotism is rather strong here, mostly due to the fact that the constituent parts of Germany predate the nation state by a long time, like in Italy. But of course, most people have no problem also waving the national flag or wearing the flag colours when it's appropriate (i.e. mostly at sports events).
Why don't I do that? Well, I'm not sure I'll be able to express that in a comprehensible manner. I am well aware that the flag we use today is the flag of the democratic Germany. It was waved at the Hambacher Fest by those who wanted to live in freedom and democracy and it was also the flag of the Weimar Republic. But it also stands for Germany, the nation state, and whenever I think of waving it I remember all the evil this state has committed and its victims (and I'm not just talking about the Holocaust or WWII) and I don't feel like waving it around anymore. We are all obliged to remember the past and that means there really isn't any 'getting over it'. It happened and will always have happened and frankly, I think, other people might do well to be a bit more humble about their respective countries' pasts, too. All too often, phrases like that are used to dismiss responsibility. I know that's not what you meant, iguana, so sorry for the tangent.
Generally, though, I think most people's relations to the flag, anthem and other national symbols are rather relaxed and pretty normal. The risk that national symbols get seized by the right-wing fringe is very low because as I outlined above, most of them are expressions of Germany's democratic traditions. I suppose one might have to share the anthem with nationalists, though they often prefer the first verse over the third which is the one sung now and which is about unity, right and freedom. But they definetely prefer the flag of the Empire which is black-white-red over the current one. Actually, some of them complained about the flag madness during the World Cup 2006 saying they were glad so many people waved or wore flags but that it was the wrong one.
What you have to keep in mind is that I'm part of the left fringe in some regards. While there's at least a large minority agreeing with me on a number of issues, even majorities on some others, flag waving is one only a tiny minority will agree with me on, and most of them are crazy anti-Germans.
What I meant to say - and I realise I didn't word it too well - was that 'regionalism' is rather normal and often a stronger loyalty than the national one. I was thinking of the various nationalities in the UK and also of Italy, to be honest. Certain regions in France also come to mind. As long as that local patriotism stays positive I don't see a problem.
My potential flag waving was just a personal example and doesn't fully apply to a majority of Germans. Local patriotism is rather strong here, mostly due to the fact that the constituent parts of Germany predate the nation state by a long time, like in Italy. But of course, most people have no problem also waving the national flag or wearing the flag colours when it's appropriate (i.e. mostly at sports events).
Why don't I do that? Well, I'm not sure I'll be able to express that in a comprehensible manner. I am well aware that the flag we use today is the flag of the democratic Germany. It was waved at the Hambacher Fest by those who wanted to live in freedom and democracy and it was also the flag of the Weimar Republic. But it also stands for Germany, the nation state, and whenever I think of waving it I remember all the evil this state has committed and its victims (and I'm not just talking about the Holocaust or WWII) and I don't feel like waving it around anymore. We are all obliged to remember the past and that means there really isn't any 'getting over it'. It happened and will always have happened and frankly, I think, other people might do well to be a bit more humble about their respective countries' pasts, too. All too often, phrases like that are used to dismiss responsibility. I know that's not what you meant, iguana, so sorry for the tangent.
Generally, though, I think most people's relations to the flag, anthem and other national symbols are rather relaxed and pretty normal. The risk that national symbols get seized by the right-wing fringe is very low because as I outlined above, most of them are expressions of Germany's democratic traditions. I suppose one might have to share the anthem with nationalists, though they often prefer the first verse over the third which is the one sung now and which is about unity, right and freedom. But they definetely prefer the flag of the Empire which is black-white-red over the current one. Actually, some of them complained about the flag madness during the World Cup 2006 saying they were glad so many people waved or wore flags but that it was the wrong one.
What you have to keep in mind is that I'm part of the left fringe in some regards. While there's at least a large minority agreeing with me on a number of issues, even majorities on some others, flag waving is one only a tiny minority will agree with me on, and most of them are crazy anti-Germans.
I can't take it anymore!
I have to post this
[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aM6xVQwIOYQ[/yt].
That's one of my favourite episodes. Also, a friend of mine quotes the song often to me because I'm a vegan. My favourite part is how they follow the flying barbecued pig.
Well, I pride myself on being an opinionated bastard, and I would feel diminished if I didn't extend my scathing critique to my own country. As for the movie, everything with Claudia Cardinale is well worth watching.There's no need to justify your avatar, iguana. From your posts it's clear that you not jingoistic in any way. Also, the risorgimento has a certain ring to it and you can watch Il Gattopardo to commemorate.
That's certainly true. Here many people identify with their city first, and with the country only as a afterthought. Unfortunately, some xenophobic movements hijacked the local identity as a symbol of their crusade against the central government, people from different parts of the country, and the immigrant population. It's especially painful for me, because I consider a positive local patriotism a value.
Ah, I was only vaguely aware of the distinction, so thanks for the explanation. That puts my thougths in a different perspective.
No worries, and I understand perfectly what you mean. Probably "getting over it" was not the best way to put it, and it did not convey my exact sentiment. Honestly, given the context the phrases is mostly used, it shouldn't came as a surprise.
I still think that some German people are still too shy about feeling good about their country for what happened 70 years ago, and I wish they would stop being ashamed of what happened before they were born, and of things they had no control over. But I'm not German, and I can't really understand how they feel, so it's not my place to argue one way or the other.
Well, how is that for a tangent?
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It's not really a tangent if it isn't a wall of text.
It's not so much being ashamed but just the realisation that a whole society and its institutions can fall into insanity and that otherwise nice people, people you know (like your grandpa) in many cases, can resort to doing horrible things pretty much out of nowhere. It's a pretty horrible thought, though it's not unique to us at all. It happens all too often in the world, after all. And it's something everyone should bear in mind.
It's part of our history and always will be. I suppose, if one subscribes to the idea that one can derive national pride from something someone else of the same nationality did, one can also derive national shame from something people of the same nationality did by the same logic. Personally, I don't because it's pure coincidence where we were born.
I don't wave the flag not because I'm ashamed but because I don't feel like cheering for an entity that has caused so much suffering and is still continuing to do so (e.g. the Kunduz airstrike). Of course, to some degree that's true of almost any country. But it's a personal decision. Generally, I don't mind other people doing it unless I suspect them of having jingoistic motives.
It's not so much being ashamed but just the realisation that a whole society and its institutions can fall into insanity and that otherwise nice people, people you know (like your grandpa) in many cases, can resort to doing horrible things pretty much out of nowhere. It's a pretty horrible thought, though it's not unique to us at all. It happens all too often in the world, after all. And it's something everyone should bear in mind.
It's part of our history and always will be. I suppose, if one subscribes to the idea that one can derive national pride from something someone else of the same nationality did, one can also derive national shame from something people of the same nationality did by the same logic. Personally, I don't because it's pure coincidence where we were born.
I don't wave the flag not because I'm ashamed but because I don't feel like cheering for an entity that has caused so much suffering and is still continuing to do so (e.g. the Kunduz airstrike). Of course, to some degree that's true of almost any country. But it's a personal decision. Generally, I don't mind other people doing it unless I suspect them of having jingoistic motives.
These unchangeable facts. Those hard learnt lessons of the past, to which you both refer; History; reminds me of the diversity of the political landscape in the UK. Freedom allows us all to have our own opions.
The adveristy that Nationalism and the wrong ideals can inflict on people sadily make countless of millions not comfortable expressing patriotism and national pride.
True diversity, I feel, must take all sections to make up a whole. Both left wing and right wing. Me, I'm a breast and thigh man myself.
I have never been to Italy, but that doesn't stop me from knowing just how sexy and beautiful Italian chicas can be; For example -- from Italy to India to Indiana and beyound, I could not tell you for the life of me; how many different peoples I have met from all over the globe with many, many different stories to tell.
Ambassador/Resident/Immigrant/Asylum Seeker & Tourist alike, I have befriended them all, but not because I had to, I did'nt, but because they were genuinely cool people. Also; I went to a really inner city Secondary School, when ever a war was on TV, there'd be new students 'fresh off the boat' from those conflicts, going to school with me like a month after seeing it break on the News -- Eastern Europe/The Middle East and Northern Africa, mostily; Also the odd Africano from Zimbabwe too when Mugabe kicked them out - Gosh, I'd never forget this Kosovo girl named Jasilda; She came to my school in Year 9 from that thing in 2000, she had the best eyes, the most beautiful body; but was too shy and sweet and quiet to hang out with the cool girls, I liked her, too bad she was at my school for less than a year.
The adveristy that Nationalism and the wrong ideals can inflict on people sadily make countless of millions not comfortable expressing patriotism and national pride.
True diversity, I feel, must take all sections to make up a whole. Both left wing and right wing. Me, I'm a breast and thigh man myself.
I have never been to Italy, but that doesn't stop me from knowing just how sexy and beautiful Italian chicas can be; For example -- from Italy to India to Indiana and beyound, I could not tell you for the life of me; how many different peoples I have met from all over the globe with many, many different stories to tell.
Ambassador/Resident/Immigrant/Asylum Seeker & Tourist alike, I have befriended them all, but not because I had to, I did'nt, but because they were genuinely cool people. Also; I went to a really inner city Secondary School, when ever a war was on TV, there'd be new students 'fresh off the boat' from those conflicts, going to school with me like a month after seeing it break on the News -- Eastern Europe/The Middle East and Northern Africa, mostily; Also the odd Africano from Zimbabwe too when Mugabe kicked them out - Gosh, I'd never forget this Kosovo girl named Jasilda; She came to my school in Year 9 from that thing in 2000, she had the best eyes, the most beautiful body; but was too shy and sweet and quiet to hang out with the cool girls, I liked her, too bad she was at my school for less than a year.
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That's an interesting opinion, given your earlier comment about the US.
What, that many American have substituted ethnic nationalism with political jingoism, which is almost as toxic?
Est modus in rebus. There is measure in all things.
I could make a comment about an American being unable to appreciate the difference between jingoism and identity, but I won't make it.
Est modus in rebus. There is measure in all things.
I could make a comment about an American being unable to appreciate the difference between jingoism and identity, but I won't make it.
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