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Spoilers Star Trek: Prodigy 2x20 - "Ouroboros, Part 2"

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I take it the ship they're given at the end was originally suppose to be the Protostar-A but was changed to Prodigy well after dialog recording. As Hologram Janeway calls it Protostar instead of Prodigy.
It's a Protostar-class vessel, as she correctly calls it. Other vessels of the same design take the class name of the lead ship (prototype), usually.
My problem with the ending. Yes, they sent the Protostar back. But you still need the future Solum civil war following the (second) first contact with the Prometheus-class ships, Ilthuran becoming The Diviner and going back in time, and setting up the prison colony. Just hard to see all that happening exactly with everything that happened on Solum in season 2.
The Solum civil war already happened during S2. Ascencia staged a military coup (notice how "the elders" from early in the season are captives at the end of the season, together with Ilturan) and late in the season Ilturan, young Ascencia and presumably "the elders" and other allies organised a counter-coup. The sensors from Voyager seemed to record large fires on the surface at some places, so she may even have used orbital bombardment.

And it's safe to say the civil war ended, in this timeline, with Asencia "burning out" and then being captured, followed by the attack of the loom. It seems Ilthuran's faction won the war this time, with heavy damage but not near to the extent from the original timeline the Diviner came from.
I’m going with Dragon Ball time travel logic here. There was always going to be a timeline where the war started and hence it’s unavoidable, no matter what they change.
The war is avoidable, Ascencia is limited in her thinking and couldn't find an alternative future using Wesley's tools, but Wesley surely would have (he had to dig deep to find a good future for his own universe, after all). In any case, the war happened but it was much shorter and much less destructive. Ascenia didn't like the outcome, still.

Note that there is no predestination paradox here. To the contrary, they had to move heaven and earth to get the Protostar in its original position on Tars Lamora, while in a predestination paradox it would have been there no matter what they did or didn't do. As Gwyn said, the future isn't written and only the past needs to remain the same. And if it doesn't, apparently the loom come.
Though it's a slim chance, I hope they do a season 3. It would be interesting to see what the kids were up to during Season 3 of Picard. I think a (family-friendly) Lower Decks crossover would also be cool. ;)
I hope they were far away from the Federation during Picard S3. A cross-over with Lower Decks would be cool though. Pity LD is a bit behind in the timeline, or we could have had the Cerritos bringing Gwyn to Solum (in an LD episode) or coming at the end of the season to do the "Second Contact" stuff.
The touch of Dal concluding his arc by realizing that Gwyn, rather than he, is the one who should have the chair is great - for his character - as learning he's not the "main character" has been a central theme. However, I'm not sure I like this for Gwyn, as it seems arbitrary, given she hasn't shown much desire for command.
The Hagemans did stuck Gwyn in the captain's chair from the pilot episode on (she was also the very first to claim to be the captain), though, and they kept doing it through most of season 1A. Gwyn always took charge whenever Dal was unavailable or otherwise not being effective. During S1, she was still grateful for being accepted after being an antagonist of sorts to the others for a while, and didn't often challenge Dal. During S2, she was more assertive on that front, notably in the episode with the Kazon.

I would pick Gwyn over Dal as leader, she is more knowledgeable and more measured/diplomatic. Maybe the more logical choice, outside of a fullblown Starfleet officer, would actually be Majel.
Soooo, if Ilthuran doesn't become the Diviner now, doesn't that change the timeline anyway?
No, because the Diviner travels back through time using the wormhole of which one end is at his reality (where Gwyn does not exist, as Ascencia likes to remind her) and the other end somewhere during TNG S3 near Tars Lamora. The original Diviner would presumably still travel back from his reality (the destroyed Solum; in fact we see him say that they will send back a 100 ships right after Chakotay escapes with the Protostar) and arrive at Tars Lamora.

In the S2 timeline, the civil war stops short of completely wrecking Solum and Ilthuran's faction wins. Also an important difference: Starfleet actually helps rather than citing the Prime Directive and saying "though luck, we won't lift a finger to help". Even young Ascencia sides with him, which makes me wonder what original Ascencia did. Was she also initially pro-Federation, as the Diviner?
The Prodigy team's mission has always been to restore the original timeline, or close to it. But wouldn't that mean:

  • Ilthuran would eventually become the Diviner and oversee the mines on Tars Lamora? Otherwise, Dal, Gwyn, and company would not have met.
  • The young Ascensia would grow up vindictive and time-travel to avenge Solum for the collapse of its society?
Edit: I should have realized this sooner, but the temporal mechanics of this season should be similar to Voyager's Endgame, the series finale. It was an alternate Janeway from a different timeline that helped Voyager get back home. The Ilthuran and Ascencia from Season 1 were from alternate timelines as well.
On the money with the last sentence! Though arguably the Diviner and the Redeemer were from the original, "prime" timeline, and the timeline from S2 has split off from that because the Diviner created Gwyn and made Tars Lamora into a slave colony. And he ultimately reached his goal: stopping the civil war on Solum from destroying the planet and his species.
Interesting that Wheaton says he's been having to keep the secret of Wesley returning for nearly four years, but I gathered he wasn't even referring to his appearance in season 2 of Picard.

I wonder how far ahead the Hagemans were planning out Prodigy's story arc?
For an earlier animated series they (mostly) wrote, Trollhunters, everything was planned out in advance (3 seasons, I think, in that case). I suspect that they planned the major lines of Prodigy's arc also 100% in advance.

It was an excellent ending to the series that shows that serialised storytelling works if the writers take care to plan (not everything, but at least the outline of major events and arcs) and care about crafting a story that makes internal sense and has a payoff.

Allthough it was a bit abrupt, I agree that Gwyn is the better choice as captain (Janeway apparently was quietly impressed after seeing Gwyn in action a few times, and she knows Dal well because she was literally in his shoes and saw some of his antics this season).

The reasoning to just give them the Protostar-class seems suspect though. Not useful for anything but exploration? Having an ultrafast courier vessel would be mighty handy for the usual TNG style missions, or to quickly react to emergencies. Maybe we should take it as a slight concession to the exploration types (I can see Jellico's side of the argument, though) and it might be a good diplomatic move toward the Vau N'akat, whom Janeway and others in Starfleet probably hope to make members or at least allies.

It's a nice move though, that they are essentially back where they started: doing their thing on their own ship, only now with official Starfleet backing. I don't think they could have had a better ending, if this is indeed the last we see of Prodigy.
 
Eh? Pic Season 1 didn't make the a mistake, it was Prodigy. They were using the wrong combadges.
Actually, Picard added the flashbacks to 2385 as reshoots very late into production as last minute exposition, after Prodigy was already being made.

So it was Picard that didn’t adhere to Prodigy, and Prodigy fixed their mistake.
 
Interesting that Wheaton says he's been having to keep the secret of Wesley returning for nearly four years, but I gathered he wasn't even referring to his appearance in season 2 of Picard.

I wonder how far ahead the Hagemans were planning out Prodigy's story arc?
A long time, Aaron Waltke told me on Tumblr he wrote Wesley's Picard S2 dialogue so foreshadow what was for him at that point (Prodigy S2) the past.
 
Finally finished season 2 of Prodigy. I think this is easily my favorite season of Streaming Trek. They managed to create compelling characters with individual development, a season long arc that was well thought out and worth the payoff, and still had individual episodes that built upon the world. All in less runtime than the live action modern seasons. They did lean pretty heavily on the legacy characters, but it didn't feel like pointless cameos. This is as much a Voyager follow-up as it is a new show, and they included Janeway, Chakotay, and the Doctor well.

All that being said, I really disliked the finale, and I'm surprised it's the highest rated episode of the show. I'll admit that most of my apprehension is because I disliked the first season of Picard, and found its themes to be the exact opposite of Prodigy -- poorly thought out and only serves to tear down the world and make it smaller. The film Remember Me is infamous for being a romantic film, only for it to end on the morning of 9/11, which was a divisive twist to say the least. I feel somewhat the same here. The big threat has been defeated, they completed their mission, only for the Academy to be suspended (which itself is a crazy decision, you need new officers now more than ever), and for Starfleet and its personnel to be dealing with the biggest shock since the end of the Dominion War. It ends on a sour note that really only exists to try and provide synergy with Picard and to give an excuse of why the crew would be given the USS Prodigy by themselves -- an action I'm also not sure I buy. Still, its an epilogue that tries to fit this show in with events outside its own depiction, so it won't taint my opinion of Prodigy itself.

I'll be a bit surprised if this show manages to get a season 3, but even if it doesn't, I think it ends in a good place for these characters.
 
I think it's high-rated because it is the end of a coherent 40-episode arc, feeding back into the very first episode. In that sense, it reaps the rewards for the appreciation of Prodigy's arc as a whole.

Some people will like that it ties into Picard's continuity as well, others won't. I'm not wild about the Picard future myself, but I do appreciate that they managed to weave it in as a way to excuse why they are sending cadets into space, Valiant-wise.
 
I have a lot to say about this series (90% great!), but I must get this off my chest. As much as I loved
Gwyn becoming the Captain of the USS Prodigy, it was somewhat diminished by having Dal get a seat right next to her. Like Janeway in Voyager, Gwyn is denied the center seat.
 
Finally finished season 2 of Prodigy. I think this is easily my favorite season of Streaming Trek. They managed to create compelling characters with individual development, a season long arc that was well thought out and worth the payoff, and still had individual episodes that built upon the world. All in less runtime than the live action modern seasons. They did lean pretty heavily on the legacy characters, but it didn't feel like pointless cameos. This is as much a Voyager follow-up as it is a new show, and they included Janeway, Chakotay, and the Doctor well.

All that being said, I really disliked the finale, and I'm surprised it's the highest rated episode of the show. I'll admit that most of my apprehension is because I disliked the first season of Picard, and found its themes to be the exact opposite of Prodigy -- poorly thought out and only serves to tear down the world and make it smaller. The film Remember Me is infamous for being a romantic film, only for it to end on the morning of 9/11, which was a divisive twist to say the least. I feel somewhat the same here. The big threat has been defeated, they completed their mission, only for the Academy to be suspended (which itself is a crazy decision, you need new officers now more than ever), and for Starfleet and its personnel to be dealing with the biggest shock since the end of the Dominion War. It ends on a sour note that really only exists to try and provide synergy with Picard and to give an excuse of why the crew would be given the USS Prodigy by themselves -- an action I'm also not sure I buy. Still, its an epilogue that tries to fit this show in with events outside its own depiction, so it won't taint my opinion of Prodigy itself.

I'll be a bit surprised if this show manages to get a season 3, but even if it doesn't, I think it ends in a good place for these characters.
I didn’t get the impression classes were cancelled forever — just until further notice as they get a sense of what is going on. Something similar happened after 9/11 when school classes were canceled that week at a lot of universities/high schools.

As for PIC tie-ins, Prodigy goes out of its way to redefine that era and make it clear that it isn’t just a dark era of unchallenged isolationism, and that Starfleet did find ways to continue the mission and not abandon those in need. Janeway is one example, I’m sure there will be others.
I have a lot to say about this series (90% great!), but I must get this off my chest. As much as I loved
Gwyn becoming the Captain of the USS Prodigy, it was somewhat diminished by having Dal get a seat right next to her. Like Janeway in Voyager, Gwyn is denied the center seat.

Maybe they should add a seat on the other side for a ship counselor.
 
I have a lot to say about this series (90% great!), but I must get this off my chest. As much as I loved
Gwyn becoming the Captain of the USS Prodigy, it was somewhat diminished by having Dal get a seat right next to her. Like Janeway in Voyager, Gwyn is denied the center seat.
I was really surprised they still went that route with Dal, it seemed like they were pivoting to have him become the pilot, a position that still really isn't filled.
 
Thoroughly enjoyed the finale and the season - if this is it for Prodigy, it wrapped up beautifully. Loved it from start to finish, and this is up there for me with Picard S3 as the best season of nuTrek.

What a wonderful show for families too - it didn't talk down to kids, but subtly worked in some incredible values and lessons for them without preaching or shying away from the trickier stuff. It was aspirational, and inspiring with clear journeys and arcs about friendship and being the best you can be. The time travel plot arc of this series (told over the whole 40 episodes) was actually amongst the sharpest and most complex time travel plots in all of Star Trek. Kids target audience does not equal dumbed down - this was a show aimed at kids brains, but not one that talked down to them. It valued kids intelligence and aimed to stimulate. A lesser kids show would not have tackled the time travel arc that this show did.

They were mad to axe this show - it could have been the gateway to a whole new audience. In retrospect - having it on P+ I think actually damaged this show's potential viewership. They should have launched it on Nickelodeon or Netflix from the very start, not a brand new streamer with no existing child/family audience.

Seriously - if you have not given this show a chance because its for kids, do it now. This is 40 episodes of some great ST, and despite the cancellation it wraps up beautifully as a complete story, albeit with potential for more.

If I had to critique the season at all, my only complaints would be that the Mirror Universe felt more like someone forgot about DS9 than a case of "the empire re-asserted itself in less than a decade after DS9". That was majorly incongruous with the development of that universe we saw in DS9. We can chalk that up to it being a mirror mirror universe instead they visited though...

That and the fact that they were VERY generous to Robert Beltran giving him work that he doesn't really deserve, given his off-screen antics and general hatred of his time on Voyager/ST.
 
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They were mad to axe this show - it could have been the gateway to a whole new audience. In retrospect - having it on P+ I think actually damaged this show's potential viewership. They should have launched it on Nickelodeon or Netflix from the very start, not a brand new streamer with no existing child/family audience.
It was a Nickelodeon too. The viewership numbers were not there.
 
It was a Nickelodeon too. The viewership numbers were not there.
Split between Nickelodeon and P+ - it shouldn't have been. That was my point. Also - can you point me to anything that said Nickelodeon werne't happy with their numbers? They weren't the main broadcaster and didn't fund the entire thing, so you can't take the axing by P+ as a sign Nick weren't happy with the performance. Unless you can point me to something that says different, it may well have been they'd have been happy to carry on chipping in and showing it.
 
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Split between Nickelodeon and P+ - it shouldn't have been. That was my point. Also - can you point me to anything that said Nickelodeon werne't happy with their numbers? They weren't the main broadcaster and didn't fund the entire thing, so you can't take the axing by P+ as a sign Nick weren't happy with the performance. Unless you can point me to something that says different, it may well have been they'd have been happy to carry on chipping in and showing it.
That they didn't pick it up to keep showing it strikes me as an indicator of their opinion.
 
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Split between Nickelodeon and P+ - it shouldn't have been. That was my point. Also - can you point me to anything that said Nickelodeon werne't happy with their numbers? They weren't the main broadcaster and didn't fund the entire thing, so you can't take the axing by P+ as a sign Nick weren't happy with the performance. Unless you can point me to something that says different, it may well have been they'd have been happy to carry on chipping in and showing it.
It's possible that Paramount/CBS had hoped to score big with Prodigy with regards to merchandising, and it didn't go as planned. Toys were late to market (probably because this marked isn't that popular anymore and Trek doesn't have much staying power in that branch), books and game probably didn't sell much,...
 
That they didn't pick it up to keep showing it strikes me as an indicator of their opinion.
Not really - they obviously had a deal going whereby they covered some of the cost, and P+ covered the bulk of it. Paying for the whole production ongoing themselves is a different beast. Do we know for sure they aren't planning on airing S2 at any point (or have they already? No idea)

As an example - in Australia, there was a soap called "Neighbours". Most of the bill for Neighbours was covered by a UK broadcaster, and in Aus it was aired on a little channel and they chipped in a little bit of budget too. When the UK broadcaster pulled out, it was axed - but the little channel said they'd quite happily have carried on paying their share to air it as it was a performer for them, but obviously couldn't cover the whole production themselves. Incidentally - Neighbours got picked up by Amazon following all this.

This sounds like a similiar scenario to me. Just because P+ axed it doesn't mean Nick weren't happy with its performance - the fact is, nobody knows if they were happy with it or not so you can't use the P+ cancellation in its own right as a sign of that because the set-up is clearly more nuanced than that.

Regardless of all that - my point still stands. The model of airing a new kids animation on a new streamer with no track record for that audience, followed by basically repeat-airings on a kids channel was a silly model. Netflix or a streamer with that audience already in place would have been a far better bet and made the show more likely to find the audience it was designed for.

Anecdotally, it sounds like its performed decently - if not extraordinarily - on Netflix, despite S1 basically being repeats - but I do wonder had it launched there originally how it would have done. Its gonna be tricky for Netflix to judge really, because again licensing a property that had already been made was always going to be a very different prospect than funding it themselves.
 
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It's possible that Paramount/CBS had hoped to score big with Prodigy with regards to merchandising, and it didn't go as planned. Toys were late to market (probably because this marked isn't that popular anymore and Trek doesn't have much staying power in that branch), books and game probably didn't sell much,...
Yes, I would agree with that - but I think the inherent issue is that in order to sell toys, you have to be have an audience of kids. I don't personally think P+ was the place to achieve that kind of audience for this show.
 
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Anecdotally, it sounds like its performed decently - if not extraordinarily - on Netflix, despite S1 basically being repeats - but I do wonder had it launched there originally how it would have done. Its gonna be tricky for Netflix to judge really, because again licensing a property that had already been made was always going to be a very different prospect than funding it themselves.
I still think it's because of the cancellation and people had to see it. It created an unintentioonal illusion of scarcity.

Paying for the whole production ongoing themselves is a different beast. Do we know for sure they aren't planning on airing S2 at any point (or have they already? No idea)
It was already made. They didn't even license it.
 
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