I had never heard of this McCool/Mason phenomenon before now. It's in a lot more than Trek it seems and must be one of the great Hollywood Easter eggs at this stage.
Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 2x04 - "Watcher"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
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I had never heard of this McCool/Mason phenomenon before now. It's in a lot more than Trek it seems and must be one of the great Hollywood Easter eggs at this stage.
I think in this case it actually works well because they are outsiders. We take for granted the things that ICE does because we have grown up enmeshed in this culture, but from an outsider perspective...it's kinda screwed up that certain individuals can be indefinitely detained in inhumane conditions and eventually deported just because they happen to lack certain paperwork.
Particularly because this event is juxtaposed with having just seen the Confideration, the point is that our present day is closer to dystopia than we'd like to admit to ourselves.
You can get some drama out of it but it just doesn't hit home on a character level quite as much as the stuff happening in their time. One of the things that makes Measure of a Man great isn't that it's just a allegory on slavery and people being mistreated but it's actually Data being treated that way. In Star Trek 4 that point out the flaw in hunting whales and even a few good digs out modern medicine but what makes the movie work is because their is stakes in that earth in the future is about to be destroyed and you got Spock dealing with getting his Katra back.
All the allegory or social commentary in the world will fall flat if it doesn't make the characters interesting or impacts them in a major way. It's just easier to get personal drama from the time in which the characters live because that is where their lives are. When they got to the past they are just observers to a world they aren't part of. That's kind of why it sucks like in the ICE story the best they could come up with is him dealing with a over the top bully cop. Wouldn't it have been more interesting if he had to go undercover as a ICE agent or he had a actual conversation with the people inside. In the end he is set free along with the doctor because they have proper ID but the others are deported ending it on a sad note which is the reality.
I think that is the potential of what they could do with ICE. I just don't think they really delivered in terms of making it interesting. The bully guard needed more nuance. We need to know more characters effected than just the doctor and her kid and frankly we need more than a single episode to really make it work IMO.
No, I don't remember that. Mainly because OBAMA built those holding areas for arriving immigrants, not President Trump. You must be remembering from an alternate timeline.
And how is this different exactly from other time travel stories? They're making social commentary on the pressing issues of that time from their future perspective while focusing on their personal stakes of repairing the ship, rescuing Rios and restoring the timeline. They didn't go back in time just so that they could criticize the American immigration system and social safety net. But they did go back to an era where economic inequality, pollution and global warming as well as immigration and the treatment of immigrants were pressing political matters, it would be crazy if they didn't offer commentary on that.
I said above that Rios is personally experiencing something that is very much a part of the history of his own people. The entire drama comes from him being mistaken for a 21st century illegal immigrant by the authorities of the era simply based on his ethnicity. If I were a 24th century Starfleet captain and went back to Transylvania in a time where the Securitate routinely abducted people from the streets in broad daylight and murdering them for speaking Hungarian, you can bet I wouldn't just dispassionately accept it as "yeah, right, the Romanian authorities of this time were racist against my ancestors, how lucky we have evolved away from that." Should a black Starfleet Captain arrested and given a show trial by racist authorities in a Jim Crow era time travel story just take it all in stride because the past is the past and it's not their fight, just mere history for them? Parts of our history form parts of our identities, they're not just mere academic curiosities and bits of information that are interesting to know at best.
It might be more interesting to you. Not to me and not to a bunch of other people. If The Voyage Home could survive with merely using anti-Russian sentiments as a backdrop for Chekov facing obstacles, then Picard could survive the experiences of an undocumented immigrant serving as a backdrop for Rios facing obstacles without having to spend an entire episode droning on about the issue. Him going undercover as an ICE agent while being Latin American defeats the entire concept of being mistaken for an illegal immigrant. And why would his incarceration only work with him having a convincing fake ID and being released along with Teresa and him looking on sadly at the others who are deported? We already see the guard treating Teresa decently and calling her an Uber because she has valid papers minutes after he bullies those who were to be put on a bus to the border. It might not have worked for you personally, but it did work for a lot of viewers.
Do we need to know more about Cardassian Guard No. 2 and how he's lovingly taking his twin daughters to the amusement park in Lakarian City whenever he's not introducing Bajoran slaves to the butt of his disruptor rifle? Do we really need to know how Klingon Thug No.4 whose main role is being rude to the Main Character who then tricks them with a fake medical emergency to facilitate their escape is actually a really great singer whose opera renditions were personally lauded by Captain K'tvok and even Chancellor Gowron asked to listen to him?
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There was overflow.
The cost to look after people in the physical standing detention centers, that I suspect were built by Obama, is $256 per day.
Trump made tent cities in the desert.
$775 per day, per detainee.
https://www.gq.com/story/trump-detention-camps-cost
The point is, before Trump, that only the worst people got sent to the detention facilities, meanwhile everyone else crossing the border seeking asylum, was given a court date and told to enjoy America until their court date to determine their status. There may have been gps tagging.
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And how is this different exactly from other time travel stories? They're making social commentary on the pressing issues of that time from their future perspective while focusing on their personal stakes of repairing the ship, rescuing Rios and restoring the timeline. They didn't go back in time just so that they could criticize the American immigration system and social safety net. But they did go back to an era where economic inequality, pollution and global warming as well as immigration and the treatment of immigrants were pressing political matters, it would be crazy if they didn't offer commentary on that.
It's no different. It's just not been as well written as some of those other stories. At least in the last episode. The first 3 were pretty good.
I said above that Rios is personally experiencing something that is very much a part of the history of his own people. The entire drama comes from him being mistaken for a 21st century illegal immigrant by the authorities of the era simply based on his ethnicity. If I were a 24th century Starfleet captain and went back to Transylvania in a time where the Securitate routinely abducted people from the streets in broad daylight and murdering them for speaking Hungarian, you can bet I wouldn't just dispassionately accept it as "yeah, right, the Romanian authorities of this time were racist against my ancestors, how lucky we have evolved away from that." Should a black Starfleet Captain arrested and given a show trial by racist authorities in a Jim Crow era time travel story just take it all in stride because the past is the past and it's not their fight, just mere history for them? Parts of our history form parts of our identities, they're not just mere academic curiosities and bits of information that are interesting to know at best.
Maybe but Rios is someone who no longer has to face racism in the present day of his life. His biggest obstacles are those of a Starfleet Captain and I am thinking maybe some issues of being lonely. While his past might be of interest I am just not sure how much many people care about their ancestors beyond curiosity. It's not like you will ever meet them. Going back to those times might inform him on how bad his people had it back then but since he won't face racism in his regular life I am not sure what else he is suppose to do. Be angry about things that happened a long time ago to people he doesn't know over issues that no longer effect him?
It might be more interesting to you. Not to me and not to a bunch of other people. If The Voyage Home could survive with merely using anti-Russian sentiments as a backdrop for Chekov facing obstacles, then Picard could survive the experiences of an undocumented immigrant serving as a backdrop for Rios facing obstacles without having to spend an entire episode droning on about the issue. Him going undercover as an ICE agent while being Latin American defeats the entire concept of being mistaken for an illegal immigrant. And why would his incarceration only work with him having a convincing fake ID and being released along with Teresa and him looking on sadly at the others who are deported? We already see the guard treating Teresa decently and calling her an Uber because she has valid papers minutes after he bullies those who were to be put on a bus to the border. It might not have worked for you personally, but it did work for a lot of viewers.
I agree. It's all subjective as to whether or not people liked the episode. I can only speak on my views. As for him having to pretend to be ICE it would give him more to do than sit in a jail cell. He would interact with the people as someone they see as equal as oppose to a prisoner. He could then see how they treat him and contrast that to how they treat the prisoners. Plus I would have gave him the car chase and gave Seven and Raffi something like working with some homeless people to track down Picard and the watcher who would have been beamed to the Watcher by having the Borg Queen accessing the Watchers location. Thus also getting ride of the Guinan stuff and replacing it with Seven and Raffi and homeless stuff. I guess as you can see I would have made some major changes to the whole episode.Hell they could have even used the fake Guinan actor and have her play a homeless person instead that helps Seven and Raffi.
Do we need to know more about Cardassian Guard No. 2 and how he's lovingly taking his twin daughters to the amusement park in Lakarian City whenever he's not introducing Bajoran slaves to the butt of his disruptor rifle? Do we really need to know how Klingon Thug No.4 whose main role is being rude to the Main Character who then tricks them with a fake medical emergency to facilitate their escape is actually a really great singer whose opera renditions were personally lauded by Captain K'tvok and even Chancellor Gowron asked to listen to him?
Their is no reason not give Cardassian Guard No 2 a little more character detail. Remember in Babylon 5 and they were rescuing Captain Sheridan who was being tortured and the wrote that one security guard who gave a little rant on why he doesn't like tv. Little details like that can take a good episode and make it great and a great episode and make it brilliant. Their is no reason as a writer to not always look for those little realistic details or moments in a movie or show. One of the most interesting scenes in Fargo the movie is something that has nothing to do with the plot but that sort of blind date with a old classmate who was really lonely. Or how about the movie Bernie were you see towns folk talk about Bernie and you can see who these people are in just a few lines talking about the main character.
It's no different. It's just not been as well written as some of those other stories. At least in the last episode. The first 3 were pretty good.
I said above that Rios is personally experiencing something that is very much a part of the history of his own people. The entire drama comes from him being mistaken for a 21st century illegal immigrant by the authorities of the era simply based on his ethnicity. If I were a 24th century Starfleet captain and went back to Transylvania in a time where the Securitate routinely abducted people from the streets in broad daylight and murdering them for speaking Hungarian, you can bet I wouldn't just dispassionately accept it as "yeah, right, the Romanian authorities of this time were racist against my ancestors, how lucky we have evolved away from that." Should a black Starfleet Captain arrested and given a show trial by racist authorities in a Jim Crow era time travel story just take it all in stride because the past is the past and it's not their fight, just mere history for them? Parts of our history form parts of our identities, they're not just mere academic curiosities and bits of information that are interesting to know at best.
Maybe but Rios is someone who no longer has to face racism in the present day of his life. His biggest obstacles are those of a Starfleet Captain and I am thinking maybe some issues of being lonely. While his past might be of interest I am just not sure how much many people care about their ancestors beyond curiosity. It's not like you will ever meet them. Going back to those times might inform him on how bad his people had it back then but since he won't face racism in his regular life I am not sure what else he is suppose to do. Be angry about things that happened a long time ago to people he doesn't know over issues that no longer effect him?
It might be more interesting to you. Not to me and not to a bunch of other people. If The Voyage Home could survive with merely using anti-Russian sentiments as a backdrop for Chekov facing obstacles, then Picard could survive the experiences of an undocumented immigrant serving as a backdrop for Rios facing obstacles without having to spend an entire episode droning on about the issue. Him going undercover as an ICE agent while being Latin American defeats the entire concept of being mistaken for an illegal immigrant. And why would his incarceration only work with him having a convincing fake ID and being released along with Teresa and him looking on sadly at the others who are deported? We already see the guard treating Teresa decently and calling her an Uber because she has valid papers minutes after he bullies those who were to be put on a bus to the border. It might not have worked for you personally, but it did work for a lot of viewers.
I agree. It's all subjective as to whether or not people liked the episode. I can only speak on my views. As for him having to pretend to be ICE it would give him more to do than sit in a jail cell. He would interact with the people as someone they see as equal as oppose to a prisoner. He could then see how they treat him and contrast that to how they treat the prisoners. Plus I would have gave him the car chase and gave Seven and Raffi something like working with some homeless people to track down Picard and the watcher who would have been beamed to the Watcher by having the Borg Queen accessing the Watchers location. Thus also getting ride of the Guinan stuff and replacing it with Seven and Raffi and homeless stuff. I guess as you can see I would have made some major changes to the whole episode.Hell they could have even used the fake Guinan actor and have her play a homeless person instead that helps Seven and Raffi.
Do we need to know more about Cardassian Guard No. 2 and how he's lovingly taking his twin daughters to the amusement park in Lakarian City whenever he's not introducing Bajoran slaves to the butt of his disruptor rifle? Do we really need to know how Klingon Thug No.4 whose main role is being rude to the Main Character who then tricks them with a fake medical emergency to facilitate their escape is actually a really great singer whose opera renditions were personally lauded by Captain K'tvok and even Chancellor Gowron asked to listen to him?
Their is no reason not give Cardassian Guard No 2 a little more character detail. Remember in Babylon 5 and they were rescuing Captain Sheridan who was being tortured and the wrote that one security guard who gave a little rant on why he doesn't like tv. Little details like that can take a good episode and make it great and a great episode and make it brilliant. Their is no reason as a writer to not always look for those little realistic details or moments in a movie or show. One of the most interesting scenes in Fargo the movie is something that has nothing to do with the plot but that sort of blind date with a old classmate who was really lonely. Or how about the movie Bernie were you see towns folk talk about Bernie and you can see who these people are in just a few lines talking about the main character.
Character detail for bit parts is an extra, not a must. If it fits the mood and flow of the scene, it works, otherwise it just needlessly bloats it and breaks the pacing of the whole thing. Characters not having fleshed out personalities beyond the role they play in the plot is something that happens in media all the time, especially when the serve as momentary obstacles for the heroes to overcome.
And mind you, the security guard from Babylon 5 wasn't written to hate TV to give him a bit of a personality and make him seem "more realistic" as an example of Joe Straczynski's focus on realism and attention to detail, as though an ICE agent being a dick to undocumented immigrants is not realistic enough. How many people do you encounter whilst doing their jobs whose personalities you also get valuable insight into? That Earthforce guard was specifically given that line because JMS knew it would be said to Jerry Doyle who was a far-right talk radio host in real life who subscribed to that exact kind of ideology, and annoyed JMS enough with his constant preaching that he wanted to get back at him. And it wasn't even the first time it happened on Babylon 5. EDIT: and, for the in-story reason, he was made to hate TV because Garibaldi's whole ruse hinged on the fact that he was all over ISN Network News as the hero who captured the traitor Captain Sheridan, and they needed a guard whom the ruse wouldn't work on. As an obstacle for him and Franklin to overcome.
I am not saying the ICE guard can't be a dick. But can't he be a more interesting dick like the tv hating guard from Babylon 5? GIve him something interesting to say and don't go to the taser cliche though sometimes it's not a taser. We have seen that scene a million times. Our hero smarts off. The guard then wails on them to show us he is a mean brute. That has bee done so many time before with goon characters.
Even if you taser him do something to make it feel different. Maybe the guard seems nice at first but then he smacks him for no reason. Or do nothing. Just have him stand their looking at Rios with his cold dead eyes and being uncaring. Maybe someone is sick in the jail with Rios and while he is rendering care as part of his job you can see in his eyes he wouldn't care if this person dies or not. Have him talk about how he loves his kid to another guard while seeing a man wheeping in his cell. They are having a regular normal conversation we all have but is totally oblivious to suffering happening right next to him.
The point of that was to show over a multi-episode arc how a seemingly harmless homeguard can turn into fascists.
The old show "Picket Fences" does something similar with the very porotagonists of the show - not turning fascist, but developing from concerned parents to bigots (about busing). I thought tht was fantastic.
Obviously, that's not the intent here. And the ICE does not have that story.
ETA: I never thought any of the B5 folks who joined was very interesting (sorry, Zack).
(without looking it up)
the guard was a Clark supporter, guarding sheridan after he was captured.
On screen for 10 seconds, 25 years ago.
Garibaldi says "Hey let me in, I'm the big hero from TV who betrayed Sheridan."
And the Guard replies in a Clint Eastwood voice "I don't watch TV, I find that it's a cultural wasteland full of unrealistic metaphors."
Ah, then I misunderstood the poster.
Yeah, they really should have done that with the ICE guard.
Yeah, they really should have done that with the ICE guard.
I actually think it's correct that showing the "human" side of the ICE guard would have made the story more compelling. As I said upthread, ultimately unjust systems aren't bad because bad people are in charge, they're bad because they're...unjust systems. There are of course some awful ICE agents (or cops in general) but the issues are more systematic that even when someone is "good" the structure and incentives within the system mean that a nice person can't actually be effective at the change needed.
By just showing a mean ICE guard, people might get the wrong message here - that things would be better as long as we replaced the ICE staff with non-assholes. Which isn't what I think the writers' intent was.
By just showing a mean ICE guard, people might get the wrong message here - that things would be better as long as we replaced the ICE staff with non-assholes. Which isn't what I think the writers' intent was.
I guess that the sum of this discussion is that if you portray modern-day fascists the un have to be 25% different or people will complain.
The problem is that he would realistically only be dispassionate about the experience if he witnessed an unrelated alien species mistreating some of its members. But he is literally pulled into what he (and most people of his generation as can be seen so often in the TNG era) considers to be the barbaric past of his own people where all of those societal ills that humanity has managed to overcome by his era are still running rampant in society. It would be like not only seeing photographs of your bombed-out hometown in WW2 but actually time traveling back to 1944 and walk around the ruins as the Soviets are shelling it. Experiencing the dark side of the history of your people can be a harrowing experience.
But why would he need to experience that in person? He already saw how the guard treated Teresa as opposed to the guy who didn't have any papers, how would Rios sharing Teresa's experiences make it any different for the viewer? Sometimes having a front row seat for your people's barbaric past is a worthy enough story in and of itself, especially if the issue of immigration is not the focus of the episode.
Yeah, on to my main point. A lot of people see it as a weakness of the story that it only skirted the issue of the treatment of immigrants instead of focusing on it at length, but I think it actually wouldn't make sense thematically if it did. All that this episode and the previous one touched upon (California wildfires/global warming, income inequality and homelessness, the treatment of undocumented immigrants and so on) would be issues that a TNG era would each devote an entire focus episode to. We'd have an immigration episode one week then an economic stratification episode the next. But ultimately, Picard doesn't treat these issues as separate ones that it wants to explore, because its messaging seems to be much more about how the entire general path humanity is currently on is a bad one. Issues like income inequality or the treatment of immigrants are all just symptoms of the same malaise plaguing society. The story doesn't single out any specific societal issue for a closer inspection because it wants to tell a message about there being significant problems with the system as a whole.
I do have to say that if there's one "social issue" I really wished wasn't discussed this season, it would be the environmental stuff. There's just be a handful of asides regarding it (the anti-pollution shield in the Confederation era, the forest fires on Hollywood Hills, some comments in Guinan's monologue) which I think were all very half-baked. Ultimately the core message of the political aspect should be about how humans treat one another (and eventually, how they treat aliens) and I think it muddies the water way too much by bringing in the environmental aspect, making it a more general "shit is fucked up."
In my opinion, how we treat each other and how we treat our planet cannot be truly separated from each other, specifically because we're not conserving the planet for our own selves but for everyone. Ultimately, global warming is just as much a symptom of humanity being on the wrong path as economic and political issues and stems from the same internal logic of the current system that places consumption and the material gain of the individual before everything else. In 2022, a truly just society cannot allow itself not to be green as well.
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