Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 2x04 - "Watcher"

[Awesome Possum]

Yeah. I wouldn’t have called them ICE as well. Give them a different name to differentiate the Trek universe from ours.

I think that would defeat the point of the story. I think the whole season is about how we're at the point where we can choose two possible futures, the Federation or the Confederation. Showing that early 21st century America is already well on it's way and using actual examples is a warning.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

You're right, there are many pathways to gain citizenship, but it requires that you follow the rules of the land and allow the process to take time. It's not a great system, but it does work. Kind of. Illegally coming into this country and getting met along the border generally means a court date at an undetermined time, then you are released back into the country until they can determine your asylum status. If you break the laws, yes you will be deported.

As somebody whose family followed the rules and attained Citizenship the legal way, it's not a impossible system.

Countless Millions have already attained legal citizenship through the system.

Follow the rules, use the path provided by each Government / Nation State to become a legal citizen.

There are stats on how many people become citizens legally each year.

You don't get to arbitrarily decide how people becomes a legal citizen for their nation-state.

You can literally look up the process on how to become a Citizen for each Country around the world.

You don't get to arbitrarily / illegally cross over the border and demand citizenship.

I do understand why they chose to portray the ICE folks like they did, they needed a bad guy. I do think the stereotypes that they used though are frustrating and overblown. They are not running around willy nilly grabbing every Hispanic looking person they see on the street. If you think that, then you've obviously never lived in Arizona or New Mexico.

I concur, it is over blown.

And what do you expect ICE to do? Ask people nicely to go home? And if the illegal immigrant choses not to leave, then what?
Keep on begging to stay?

We have a legal process for a reason, you are required to use it.

Almost every Nation-State has a legal process and path to become a citizen. You should use it.

I think if a foreigner has no prior criminal history, they should be given a path to citizenship. If they do have a criminal history, then I think it should be case-by-case because I don't think "one size fits all". And I don't think families should be split up.

That's not for you to decide based on your feelings.

Go look up the naturalization and the path for legal citizenship in each country, go follow it.

We have established legal procedures for becoming a Citizen in each Country.

Canada has theirs, Japan has theirs, etc.

The USA is not an exception to that rule.

No Country/Nation State is ever an exception to that rule.

As far as where fans stand ideologically, those of you who are right-wing should know by now that Star Trek is left-leaning. So if you're fuming about "Oh my God! Look how they portray ICE!!!!" that's what I call "mock outrage" because you had to have figured that's what would happen. What exactly were any of you expecting? Don't kid yourselves.

Star Trek is actually more neutral than you think.

There are ways of portraying things with more subtlety, here there was none, it was completely cartoonish.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Many of the people being detained are either in some stage of the process or came here seeking asylum. They did everything right and were still punished, mostly because the former administration openly admitted they wanted to block all immigration from any country with brown people.

 

[thribs]

I think that would defeat the point of the story. I think the whole season is about how we're at the point where we can choose two possible futures, the Federation or the Confederation. Showing that early 21st century America is already well on it's way and using actual examples is a warning.

Science fiction is all about using allegories so I don’t see that being a issue. Besides, I don’t think the ICE stuff has anything to do with the divide. I’m going with the Europa mission.

 

[ToddCam]

Access to resources is not universal. The legal process may be an option for some, but not all. And if you are a refugee, the idea you should wait in a dangerous situation until all the paperwork is ready, is absurd.

Let's use a current more European example. Would you tell a Ukrainian refugee on the Polish border to go home and apply?

 

[Jayson1]

Some of the specific negative reactions to both this episode of Picard and the ending of last week’s Discovery S04 finale made me feel proud to be a Star Trek fan.

While most major franchise seem to barely be able to pay lip service to the lofty and noble ideals they claim to espouse, Trek keeps on trying to live up to those ideals, and laying it all out there in the open.

Additionally, subtlety can be a good thing, and has its place, bu

Here's a question: why do you have a problem with ICE, a horrible, unjust arm of a system that abuses immigrants, being portrayed as a horrible, unjust arm of a system that abuses immigrants, and instead want it to be portrayed as decent human beings who aren't as bad as they seem? That's not being about both sides. You don't look at Jeffrey Dahmer and say "yeah, he ate some people, but he had wonderful people skills."

We know they're human, and we know they have personal lives with their own problems. We also know they're engaging in abusive acts against other human beings. Why, on this earth, should there be one iota of effort dedicated to making them look better than what they actually are, Jayson?

Have you ever seen the movie "My Friend Dahmer." Brilliant movie about Dahmer when he was in high school. It did not shy away at showing how fucked up he was but it also showed him as a real person and not just you know a punchline to a Jay Leno joke from back in the day. It actually made him even more scary than any one-note look at him could ever do.

Also you are looking at it the wrong way. It is not about making them look better. It about making them look realistic. You need to trust the audience more and it's ability to comprehend the complex duality of human nature. Good people can do bad things. Bad people can do good things. People understand this because they understand these instincts from just understanding themselves. To do otherwise is to disrespect their intelligence and their own ability to understand ethics and morality on their own.

 

[bryce]

Gotta wonder if Seven's implants will be back too, but I have a feeling that they will.

Also, was there a poster showing the Ring Enterprise ship in that episode? I thought I caught a glimpse of it...in the Park, when Picard went to see the Watcher

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Access to resources is not universal. The legal process may be an option for some, but not all. And if you are a refugee, the idea you should wait in a dangerous situation until all the paperwork is ready, is absurd.

Of course resource access isn't universal. That's real life. Most people will not be born with the same resources, gifts, abilities, etc. That's the reality / roll of the dice with real life.

But that's the system that was created by all the countries around the world.
You don't have to like it, but you do have to follow it. Many have and went along the legal process that was provided.

Let's use a current more European example. Would you tell a Ukrainian refugee on the Polish border to go home and apply?

That's a more extreme & current example where they are in clear & imminent danger.
But at this point, they cross over to the local countries embassy, apply for Refugee status until the situation with their country is over.

But many people who illegally crossover in the USA aren't from a country that is in "Clear & Imminent" danger. So you have to follow the bureaucracy and the rules provided.

You don't get to arbitrarily decide what are the acceptable ways of gaining citizenship.

 

[thribs]

I thought you just go to Liberty Island. They gave you a new name, some ice cream and you’re in.

 

[Hythlodeus]

Give me your huddled masses as long as they are able to fill out the paperwork

 

[Amaris]

Of course resource access isn't universal. That's real life. Most people will not be born with the same resources, gifts, abilities, etc. That's the reality / roll of the dice with real life.

But that's the system that was created by all the countries around the world.
You don't have to like it, but you do have to follow it. Many have and went along the legal process that was provided.


That's a more extreme & current example where they are in clear & imminent danger.
But at this point, they cross over to the local countries embassy, apply for Refugee status until the situation with their country is over.

But many people who illegally crossover in the USA aren't from a country that is in "Clear & Imminent" danger. So you have to follow the bureaucracy and the rules provided.

You don't get to arbitrarily decide what are the acceptable ways of gaining citizenship.

There is no excuse for the abuses immigrants face from ICE on a daily basis. None. Whether or not you think they deserve to be here if they didn't go through a labyrinthine and overloaded system, or didn't have the money, or wasn't one of the preferred immigration groups (Ukrainians yes, Haitians no), that doesn't change the cruelty of ICE. The hysterectomies of women kept in camps. The separation of children from parents. The denial of basic food, and water. The denial of clean bedding, or any bedding at all. Denial of medication while held in concentration camps. Sexual and physical abuses by guards on men, women, and children. No, no that is never acceptable.

You emigrated to the US the legal way, good for you, but that doesn't mean these people deserve less respect because they were desperate and had no resources. As for "clear and imminent danger" countries, thanks to US foreign policy, most countries from where refugees arrive are no longer safe for them.

You don't have to follow bureaucracy if the bureaucratic system is cruel. You have a duty to not follow those rules if those rules are creating more harm than they are reducing harm, and quite frankly, "I was just following orders" didn't work for the Nazis, and it shouldn't work here. These cruel systems continue to exist because they have the complicity of people who are just cogs in the system. All it takes for evil to triumph is for good people to stand by and do nothing, and too many people are encouraged to do nothing because anything else makes their lives more difficult by that system.

There are leaders in this country who cause great harm to marginalized groups, and I openly defy them because I won't be a part of their cruelty. How easy it would be for the US to become its own confederation. All it takes is for people to keep their head down, and just do what they're told. Sure, millions will be harmed, thousands will die, but the law will be observed. Oh goody.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I thought you just go to Liberty Island. They gave you a new name, some ice cream and you’re in.

Are you serious, or are you joking?

 

[Amaris]

Give me your huddled masses as long as they are able to fill out the paperwork

Certain huddled masses need not apply. Don't come.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

There is no excuse for the abuses immigrants face from ICE on a daily basis. None. Whether or not you think they deserve to be here if they didn't go through a labyrinthine and overloaded system, or didn't have the money, or wasn't one of the preferred immigration groups (Ukrainians yes, Haitians no), that doesn't change the cruelty of ICE. The hysterectomies of women kept in camps. The separation of children from parents. The denial of basic food, and water. The denial of clean bedding, or any bedding at all. Denial of medication while held in concentration camps. Sexual and physical abuses by guards on men, women, and children. No, no that is never acceptable.

Then follow the process / procedure to file complaints about the abuses that ICE Officers violated while doing their duty.
If you think it's that rampant and you have proof, I'm sure you can file all the legal injunctions to prosecute and start naming ICE officers for all their misdeeds.

You emigrated to the US the legal way, good for you, but that doesn't mean these people deserve less respect because they were desperate and had no resources. As for "clear and imminent danger" countries, thanks to US foreign policy, most countries from where refugees arrive are no longer safe for them.

How so? How are the countries no longer safe for them?

You don't have to follow bureaucracy if the bureaucratic system is cruel. You have a duty to not follow those rules if those rules are creating more harm than they are reducing harm, and quite frankly, "I was just following orders" didn't work for the Nazis, and it shouldn't work here. These cruel systems continue to exist because they have the complicity of people who are just cogs in the system. All it takes for evil to triumph is for good people to stand by and do nothing, and too many people are encouraged to do nothing because anything else makes their lives more difficult by that system.

Again, massive exaggeration about what ICE is doing & comparing the ICE officers to Nazi's.

Because you don't like the Bureaucracy or Rules, you're going to violate them because you don't like them.

Good luck when they arrest you for violating the law.

There are leaders in this country who cause great harm to marginalized groups, and I openly defy them because I won't be a part of their cruelty. How easy it would be for the US to become its own confederation. All it takes is for people to keep their head down, and just do what they're told. Sure, millions will be harmed, thousands will die, but the law will be observed. Oh goody.

Then you should go follow your conscience, we'll see how much "Good" you can do when you go violate the law and get yourself arrested.

 

[thribs]

Are you serious, or are you joking?

Well the ice cream thing I heard from QI.

 

[Amaris]

Then follow the process / procedure to file complaints about the abuses that ICE Officers violated while doing their duty.
If you think it's that rampant and you have proof, I'm sure you can file all the legal injunctions to prosecute and start naming ICE officers for all their misdeeds.


How so? How are the countries no longer safe for them?


Again, massive exaggeration about what ICE is doing & comparing the ICE officers to Nazi's.

Because you don't like the Bureaucracy or Rules, you're going to violate them because you don't like them.

Good luck when they arrest you for violating the law.


Then you should go follow your conscience, we'll see how much "Good" you can do when you go violate the law and get yourself arrested.

You engage in the same disingenuous argument another poster did, by shifting blame off of the system itself, and onto individuals to act up against systemic abuse. I exaggerated nothing, by the way. Right now the United States is making way for Ukrainian refugees. Meanwhile, it told other immigrants (most of them with dark brown or black skin) seeking safe haven in the US not to come. The exact words of the Vice President were "do not come."

I have direct experience with ICE screwing around with people I care about, as do the people I work with who help deliver the food, clothing, and other supplies to various border camps. Once again, I am glad you were able to enter the country with enough money and accommodation, but your story is not typical of the US, not anymore, and especially not if your country is on our non-desirables list.

This episode of Picard was correct in how it portrayed ICE, how it portrayed the bureaucracy of the system. It was tame about abuses, but you can't turn off too many people because even this little peek behind the curtain was enough to inflame the indignities of comfortable people, which is good. I want Star Trek to make people who are complacent uncomfortable. The show has a long history for standing up against injustice and inequity. That legacy needs to continue, and AFAIC, Picard is taking heavy swings at it.

 

[ToddCam]

Then follow the process / procedure to file complaints about the abuses that ICE Officers violated while doing their duty.
If you think it's that rampant and you have proof, I'm sure you can file all the legal injunctions to prosecute and start naming ICE officers for all their misdeeds.


How so? How are the countries no longer safe for them?


Again, massive exaggeration about what ICE is doing & comparing the ICE officers to Nazi's.

Because you don't like the Bureaucracy or Rules, you're going to violate them because you don't like them.

Good luck when they arrest you for violating the law.


Then you should go follow your conscience, we'll see how much "Good" you can do when you go violate the law and get yourself arrested.

Because of course, ICE is going to be totally cooperative and treat you fairly after they've abused you. That makes no logical sense to assume you'd even be able to file a complaint. And this is after you are deported? Do you get more access to resources at that point? Come on...

 

[bryce]

Sisko arrived at the end of August 2024. Picard's in April.

Naw, that's not what I meant - I remember that the Defiant was isolated from the changes in the timeline, and I remember they went back to Earth to look for Sisko, and I don't remember if they tried different time periods, but I believe there was a scene where O'Brian and Kira had beamed down to am Earth that was in *our* future (like even *past* 2024, past the Bell Riots) and Kira or O'Brian said something like (paraphrasing) "I knew it was bad back then, but not that bad. Something's very wrong."

I believe this may have been in the mid to late 21st century.

I really need to check a synopsis of the episode.

Also, @Sci I like your answer, that since the Federation no longer exists in the 24th century, then there was no Picard to go back and visit Guinan and Mark Twain in the 19th century in San Fran.

It would also explain why 25th century Guinan didn't recall meeting Picard ever in the 24th century.

But now, here is the rub...when they get back to the future, will Guinan memories now if having met Picard in the 19th AND the 21st centuries!? Because this does take place *before* the event that split the timeline...so she should retain the memory, because that event also NOW too place in her regular past.

Even if a *human* wouldn't remember,
Guian's seems to have the ability to remember multiple timelines and ate sensitive to changes in. (How much of this is her inborn talent, and how much is residual effects from the Nexus, we may never know.

But I think even a *human* would now remember both sets of memories now, as the timeline has still been changed.

UGH, I *hate* temporal mechanics! A lot of time travel stories seem to involve the concept of not only a maleable past, but also a sort of TIME THAT TIME HAPPENS IN. A sort of...for want of a better word, Ubërtime? (I was gonna call it "Over Time" bit that term has other connotations.)

Let me *try* to explain...so, the FIRST TIME that 2024 ran, there was never any visit of Picard to 2024, but there *WAS* a visit of Picard to the 19th century...but THEN Q changed to present - (He either over wrote the timeline, or He shoved Our Heroes *sideways* in time into a parallel reality that exists somewhere in Probability Space** )...so that "NOW", there is a visit to the 21st century but NOT the 19th...but THEN Picard and Co. will - in the near "Future", fix the discrepancy and THEN, there will be a Picard visit to the 19th century AND a visit to the 21st century.

Even if you can go back and change something from how it happen the *first time* - like I often wish, so badly, that I can go back in time and not be a f*cking IDIOT and go out with this girl who liked me and who wanted to go out with me. Not just because I think it would have worked, and I would have been a happier and better person for it, and because I feel *pain* about causing her pain. I wish I could erase it. Info it. But even if I could go back and redo it all, it doesn't change the fact that there was a version of *her* who, "back then", DID live through that pain - I know, I lived through all that too - so, time has to have a time that time happens. That can never be undone.

Of course this all violates Einstein and Relativity, which pretty much comfirms that the past and the future both ALREADY have happened.

Ugh. The other alternative - and I think likely the truth - is that backwards time travel is just NOT POSSIBLE. AT ALL.

**(In my personal hypothesis about how time works, traveling Forward in Time takes you to the Future, traveling Backwards in Time takes you to the Past, and traveling Sideways in Time is traveling in Probability - or Probability Space. And that is just one axis in Time...there are many...in fact, I think Probability Space, or P-Space, is a type of multidimensional phase space, with many axis, maybe infinite.

Course I not a physicist and so this is all

 

[Trekker4747]

Thanks for proving my point about progressives.

Boy, you surely like to throw that word around (particularly capitalized and in quotes) as if it's some kind of insult or thing to be ashamed of. You do know what franchise we're talking about on this board? Right?

I will proudly say I'm a Progressive and a Liberal. Not ashamed of it.

 

[bryce]

Oh, and we finally got an explaination Picard's British accent!!!