Spoilers Star Trek: Lower Decks 4x05 - "Empathalogical Fallacies"

[jackoverfull]

First appearance of Sisko since DS9?

didn’t notice it and now I’m laughing.

 

[Akiraprise]

I give this an 8 this week.Enjoyed the twist that the Betazoids weren't the baddies and Capt Freeman using their telepathy as a tactic to sow dissension between them was clever. Security was portrayed competently for a change too.

Let’s lurk somewhere else had me laughing.

I chuckled at that myself. Typical Romulans.

I love how the Romulans are just in the neutral zone. The whole point of it is that no ship is allowed in it.

Aren't they always in the Zone? Anytime a Fed ship crosses they seem to decloak. But Starfleet kinda does a shoulder shrug and eye roll.

T'Lyn is awesome. That is all.

She's becoming my new favorite character. I liked Daria too.

 

[Avro Arrow]

It's worth noting that Sito Jaxa does not wear a Bajoran earring.
As so often happens, that's not proof of anything...just worth noting.

"Problem officer" Gerron in VOY doesn't get to wear his. But neither does Celes, who is a fine officer.
Matt Mura on Picard does wear one. And so does Sing. And Shaxs.

Do all Bajorans normally wear earrings, though? Surely there must be some non-religious Bajorans. Maybe Sito and Celes fall under that category? (It’s been ages since I’ve seen those episodes, so I don’t recall if any of their dialogue referenced the Prophets or anything.)

We have seen that T'Lynn transferred to the Cerritos despite not going to SF academy. That would seem to imply that any species local defense training (at least those already part of UFP) is transferrable to SF service (and vice verse).

IIRC, we also saw Michael Burnham join Starfleet after attending the Vulcan Science Academy instead of Starfleet Academy.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

We have seen that T'Lynn transferred to the Cerritos despite not going to SF academy. That would seem to imply that any species local defense training (at least those already part of UFP) is transferrable to SF service (and vice verse).

I concur, they might have similar curriculum with only differences in procedural and computer UI details.

This also alleviates the in-universe problem of SF Academy only being on Earth (which quite frankly doesn't make any sense)... there should be SF Academy on every member planet with multiple campuses (or SF starbases that are built after the plane joined which would have loads of training facilities and SF staff for local defense, humanitarian missions, science, first contact/dipliomacy, etc).

We both concur on that issue, SF Academy should have at minimum, one Academy per UFP Member World in each of their respective Star Systems, preferably more.

But, if for example a Vulcan, Andorian or a Betazoid (or humans living on those planets) already have trained at those planets local academies for their own planetary defense force, then its more likely if they develop an interest in joining SF, they just directly transfer.

Or they could have joint Academies of StarFleet / Local Defense Force, either way is good.
Cross Train at a earlier stage in the Academy training since there would be lots of overlap on basic knowledge.

However, earlier Trek implied that this wasn't 'universal'. If you wanted to serve in SF, you had to go through SF Academy (and SF was deemed to be the main/only starship service for a UFP member planet post joining). The first case I can recall was of Major Kira being given a SF commission in S7 of DS9... and even then I guess we can ascertain that this was kind of an exception rather than the rule (but I suppose it set a precedent).

Or kind of like how Riker temporarily went to serve on a Klingon Bird of Prey or how Worf's brother came to serve on the Enterprise-D as it's 1st Officer in a "Officer Exchange Program".

So, In the case of Bajor, once its met UFP's guidelines for joining (unless the conditions in S5 just prior to the start of the Dominion War would still apply for Bajor joining), it would likely retain its militia, but SF would probably take over in terms of defense since Bajor wasn't too big on building combat capable vessels (although its possible that Bajor would want to create its own local fleet anyway).

The Bajoran Militia would probably be the local defense fleet in the Bajoran Star Systems and called upon for action in the local area or nearby issues so that they can be a rapid responder.

They'd only be asked to respond to more distant incidents in times of major crisis.

 

[Deks]

Do all Bajorans normally wear earrings, though? Surely there must be some non-religious Bajorans. Maybe Sito and Celes fall under that category? (It’s been ages since I’ve seen those episodes, so I don’t recall if any of their dialogue referenced the Prophets or anything.)



IIRC, we also saw Michael Burnham join Starfleet after attending the Vulcan Science Academy instead of Starfleet Academy.

There's that too.
Though there is a bit of a discrepancy here because Sarek was told that further education in the science department (including postings on ships) would only be available for 1 of Sarek's kids... and Spock rejected this opportunity to attend Starfleet Academy instead - so its a bit of a problem if you ask me because if Burnham already attended the Vulcan Science Academy, wouldn't that imply Spock would have directly transferred to SF and not have to go through the academy if he also graduated from the Vulcan Science Academy, or he never attended the Vulcan Science Academy and just went to SF Academy instead?

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

There's that too.
Though there is a bit of a discrepancy here because Sarek was told that further education in the science department (including postings on ships) would only be available for 1 of Sarek's kids... and Spock rejected this opportunity to attend Starfleet Academy instead - so its a bit of a problem if you ask me because if Burnham already attended the Vulcan Science Academy, wouldn't that imply Spock would have directly transferred to SF and not have to go through the academy if he also graduated from the Vulcan Science Academy, or he never attended the Vulcan Science Academy and just went to SF Academy instead?

Everything from Spock's Memory Alpha Article implies that Spock was one of the first group of Vulcans to attend StarFleet Academy.

 

[fireproof78]

An assumption without basis.

 

[Deks]

Or kind of like how Riker temporarily went to serve on a Klingon Bird of Prey or how Worf's brother came to serve on the Enterprise-D as it's 1st Officer in a "Officer Exchange Program".

I forgot about that from TNG.
But yes, the Officer Exchange Program seem to imply an exception rather than the rule - but then agains, the Klingons were only UFP's allies, not members, so there's that.

I still maintain that back in the 90ies Trek it was handled differently... or that it really didn't quite seem to exist and SF was implied to be the primary defensive and exploratory arm of UFP (much like Picard described) and modern Trek seemed to have retconned that.

The Bajoran Militia would probably be the local defense fleet in the Bajoran Star Systems and called upon for action in the local area or nearby issues so that they can be a rapid responder.

They'd only be asked to respond to more distant incidents in times of major crisis.

SF would obviously have to have a presence in Bajoran star system.
DS9 is already there, and SF was used initially as administrative staff to keep the Cardassians from coming back.
But at some point during the war, DS9 effectively became a Federation starbase it seems and SF presence in the form of ships did increase when the Dominion War began (as opposed to having just the Defiant there when it was first introduced).

Its likely that what you described is the case... but I still suspect SF would have its own ships in the member planet star systems along with starbases, construction facilities (shipyards and others) etc.

I suspect that when Bajor recovered to the point it was deemed admissable into the Federation in S5 of DS9 it reached a point of certain self-sufficiency. SF didn't really interfere in that and provided some aid while Bajor was recovering here and there to alleviate most critical issues on the planet... but their presence mainly helped to stave off the Cardassians and allow Bajor to recover.
So I think Bajor would indeed start constructing its own starship designs after the fact, but SF would retain a presence in every member star system with both infrastructure (starbases, training facilities, shipyards) and ships.

 

[NCC-73515]

They took a strange course to get to Betazed...

Also, are Caitians from Betazed? Or did they hunt Betazoids when both had warp drive already? Or were the Caitians technologically superior? A funny Kelpien/Ba'ul situation

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I forgot about that from TNG.
But yes, the Officer Exchange Program seem to imply an exception rather than the rule - but then agains, the Klingons were only UFP's allies, not members, so there's that.

But that's usually a first step towards the eventual goal that we know that the Klingons will eventually become a member of the UFP, same with the Romulans.

I still maintain that back in the 90ies Trek it was handled differently... or that it really didn't quite seem to exist and SF was implied to be the primary defensive and exploratory arm of UFP (much like Picard described) and modern Trek seemed to have retconned that.

Not really, SF is the Primary Defense, Scientific research, & Exploratory arms of the UFP. That's true.
But there are more layers to it than that.

There's a local "National Guard" Contingent that maintains their own vessels as well and their own ship type.
Having every ship out there be "Homogenous" & dependent on StarFleet level of tech is not good.

Diversity & experimentation is good to. Just look at IRL and how all the major nations & Defense Contractors have their own Fighter Jets, Ships, Tanks, etc.

I can see the same within the UFP, we have common communication protocols, similar power pack interface standards like we have similar ammo specs, etc.
Kind of like NATO, but expanded to the UFP.

There's the Federal Branch which encompasses all of the UFP (StarFleet), then there's the local National Guard that functions as a backup and regional responder. But Local would be per Member Species and/or Star System.
We can see local Member Species National Guard work with StarFleet out there in the real world as needed like when the USS Cerritos was saved by the VCF Sh'vhal.

As for what the 3-letter acronym that VCF stands for, we can only guess.
I'm assuming V is for Vulcan.
C is for the "Confederacy' since Beta Canon calls the Species/World wide Government of the Vulcan People the 'Vulcan Confederacy'.
F is for 'Federation'

So VCF stands for (Vulcan Confederacy within the Federation)

How does that sound, plausible?

SF would obviously have to have a presence in Bajoran star system.
DS9 is already there, and SF was used initially as administrative staff to keep the Cardassians from coming back.
But at some point during the war, DS9 effectively became a Federation starbase it seems and SF presence in the form of ships did increase when the Dominion War began (as opposed to having just the Defiant there when it was first introduced).

During War Time, you need to ramp things up.

Its likely that what you described is the case... but I still suspect SF would have its own ships in the member planet star systems along with starbases, construction facilities (shipyards and others) etc.

I fully concur.

I suspect that when Bajor recovered to the point it was deemed admissable into the Federation in S5 of DS9 it reached a point of certain self-sufficiency. SF didn't really interfere in that and provided some aid while Bajor was recovering here and there to alleviate most critical issues on the planet... but their presence mainly helped to stave off the Cardassians and allow Bajor to recover.
So I think Bajor would indeed start constructing its own starship designs after the fact, but SF would retain a presence in every member star system with both infrastructure (starbases, training facilities, shipyards) and ships.

Of course, eventually Bajor would become a member of the UFP down the road and co-exist as part of the greater UFP family.

 

[Fateor]

My point (which should be obvious) is that Starfeet officers have worn dangly earrings. And Ro gets to wear her earring at the end of the episode and continues to throughout the show. The code involving earrings seems "flexible".

Yes, personal exceptions can be granted.

But if we held the likely results of that exception up to reality, it would involve Ro taking a lot of trips to medbay to have her ear regenerated.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Yes, personal exceptions can be granted.

But if we held the likely results of that exception up to reality, it would involve Ro taking a lot of trips to medbay to have her ear regenerated.

Eh, it's a TV show. It's only a problem if the plot says it's a problem. Pretty sure the writers didn't have FedOSHA rules in mind when they dropped that line into the script. I can see Worf's baldric being a safety violation too. Plus why give an opponent something grab during a fight? Tactically unsound.

 

[Fateor]

Eh, it's a TV show. It's only a problem if the plot says it's a problem. Pretty sure the writers didn't have FedOSHA rules in mind when they dropped that line into the script. I can see Worf's baldric being a safety violation too. Plus why give an opponent something grab during a fight? Tactically unsound.

Congratulations, you just discovered the real reason Worf get's his ass kicked so much.

 

[jackoverfull]

But that's usually a first step towards the eventual goal that we know that the Klingons will eventually become a member of the UFP, same with the Romulans.

do we? They’re not in the federation in the 25th century and Discovery has conspicuously avoided talking about their status in the 23rd.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

do we? They’re not in the federation in the 25th century and Discovery has conspicuously avoided talking about their status in the 23rd.

During the 26th century

The Federation has become an even more powerful entity, with species such as Klingons, Ithenites, and Xindi among its citizenry. (ENT: "Azati Prime")

Before "The Burn", the Romulans re-unified with their Vulcan cousins.

 

[Fateor]

During the 26th century

Before "The Burn", the Romulans re-unified with their Vulcan cousins.

"Klingon's are among it's citizenry" does not equate to the Klingon Empire having joined the Federation.

It just means that some Klingon's are Federation Citizens. Which we already knew from Worf.

 

[fireproof78]

Yes, personal exceptions can be granted.

But if we held the likely results of that exception up to reality, it would involve Ro taking a lot of trips to medbay to have her ear regenerated.

She's not a security officer.

 

[Destructor]

Destructor, I applaud your efforts to give your daughter freedom of choice while still screening what she is exposed to media-wise so that she's not viewing anything age inappropriate.

My wife and I went ahead and watched the ep without our daughter, based on the comments here. After we finished, we had a chat and decided we will rewatch it with her, as there is nothing really objectionable- no nudity, no orgy, no OTT violence- I think she'll enjoy the episode.

However, as we see with this week's reviews, what one person feels is appropriate another rejects wholesale. Opinions can get heated and assumptions are made.

I understand , but I've asked this question for almost every episode of LD and there's never been a blow-up like this. Is asking if there is adult content in an ep really that much of a problem? I don't think people need to know anything about my daughter to answer the question- a simple yes or no is fine.

You don't seem to worried about spoilers, since you read the forum comments prior to watching the episode now.

Prior to watching the ep I only read responses to my original question, which does ask for no spoilers. To scroll through the screencaps would absolutely spoil the ep for me, and be far more time intensive than asking here (and would also miss any audio content that is worth flagging). I've been on TrekBBS for over 20 years. There are people here I like and trust. I feel that asking here is little different to asking a friend group who have seen the episode if there is any questionable content to watch out for- a low bar to jump.

If the mods ask me to stop asking the question, I absolutely will- I have a number of other Trek communities I can plug into to get the same information. I ask here because TrekBBS is my first and oldest Trek community. I used the ask the question in a separate thread but the mods asked me to merge with the main episode thread, so I ask here now. I appreciate where you're coming from with your suggestion, but I will be asking the same question again next week (maybe with a disclaimer!) unless the mods ask me not to.

 

[The Wormhole]

Though there is a bit of a discrepancy here because Sarek was told that further education in the science department (including postings on ships) would only be available for 1 of Sarek's kids... and Spock rejected this opportunity to attend Starfleet Academy instead - so its a bit of a problem if you ask me because if Burnham already attended the Vulcan Science Academy, wouldn't that imply Spock would have directly transferred to SF and not have to go through the academy if he also graduated from the Vulcan Science Academy, or he never attended the Vulcan Science Academy and just went to SF Academy instead?

The issue was joining the Vulcan Expeditionary group. The VEG was only going to allow one of Sarek's children to join, and even though Michael qualified upon graduating the Vulcan Science Academy, Sarek decided he would leave the vacancy for Spock instead, and thus arranged to have Michael join Starfleet instead. Then Spock chose to enroll in Starfleet Academy instead, therefore preventing himself from joining the Expeditionary Group altogether.

Everything from Spock's Memory Alpha Article implies that Spock was one of the first group of Vulcans to attend StarFleet Academy.

That's speculation only, likely MA's vain attempt to hold onto the old fanon theory that Spock was the first Vulcan to join Starfleet, which is since been negated to the extreme.

 

[Fateor]

She's not a security officer.

No, she was worse, an ensign.