Star Trek Canon Problems

[Cr0sis21]

It's funny how I was just talking about this with coworkers and how male celebrities are expected to take it as part of the job in many instances, while highly inappropriate comments are made.

It's very unfortunate.

Yeah. One thing I think about a lot: When we talk about women having comments made about them, catcalled, objectified, etc, the perpetrators are often presented as the most repulsive, unattractive men one can think of. Fat, balding, middle-aged, etc. And thus the attractive woman is rightly put off.
But if we do the opposite, a couple of real Mama June looking women harassing, for instance, David Ajala, I don't think people would take too kindly to it.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

Interestingly, Alice Eve herself had no problem with the scene at all and felt confused by the controversy surrounding it:

https://www.inverse.com/entertainment/alice-eve-interview-star-trek-into-darkness-warning

Just another perspective. Personally I have little opinion about it one way or the other.

 

[Citiprime]

Interestingly, Alice Eve herself had no problem with the scene at all and felt confused by the controversy surrounding it:

https://www.inverse.com/entertainment/alice-eve-interview-star-trek-into-darkness-warning

Just another perspective. Personally I have little opinion about it one way or the other.

I do find it interesting that many people find this to be objectionable and "a bridge too far" for a franchise that over its entire history has either put female characters into form-fitting uniforms and cat suits to accentuate their breasts and body lines, or very little clothing at all right up to the present day.

Personal opinion, but I don't get the argument for the Alice Eve scene in Into Darkness being misogynistic. If anything, it stands out because I think it's gratuitous (i.e., there's really no reason for it to be there other than to be titillating). But I could go on a rant for why a LOT of things in into Darkness aren't exactly natural extensions of the plot beyond Alice Eve in her underwear.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

I do find it interesting that many people find this to be objectionable and "a bridge too far" for a franchise that over its entire history has either put female characters into form-fitting uniforms and cat suits to accentuate their breasts and body lines, or very little clothing at all right up to the present day.

Personal opinion, but I don't get the argument for the Alice Eve scene in Into Darkness being misogynistic. if anything it stands out because think it's gratuitous (i.e., there's really no reason for it to be there other than to be titillating). But I could go on a rant for why a LOT of things in into Darkness aren't exactly natural extensions of the plot beyond Alice Eve in her underwear.

Gratuitous, agreed.

I also don’t find it particularly misogynistic, but as a male I may be unqualified to comment.

 

[Cryogenator]

In an alternate universe where men and women are truly equal, women generally do not earn less, are not reduced to their bodies as frequently or disproportionately become victims of institutional, societal and everyday sexism, sexualized and domestic violence and spousal murder … yeah maybe you could say it is and not make it look like a completely foolish position.

I don't think Alice Eve appears partially undressed due to woman hatred and I don't think Chris Pine appears partially undressed due to man hatred.

 

[cooleddie74]

William Ware Theiss would look at SNW T'Pring and probably say: "YOU'RE WELCOME." Theiss pioneered the "barely there" look on Trek women.

 

[Cryogenator]

William Ware Theiss would look at SNW T'Pring and probably say: "YOU'RE WELCOME." Theiss pioneered the "barely there" look on Trek women.

I'd never heard of him, so thanks for mentioning him.

In the course of his career, Theiss was most famous for creating alluring female costuming that censors typically could not credibly forbid, employing what came to be called the "Theiss Titillation Theory": "The sexiness of an outfit is directly proportional to the perceived possibility that a vital piece of it might fall off."​

~ Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens, The Art of Star Trek (1995)

The Star Trek designs of William Ware Theiss are legendary. His uniforms for The Original Series and The Next Generation are so iconic that they’ve become visual shorthand for science fiction. Everyone knows these costumes, even if they’re not Star Trek fans.

While the works are famous, their creator is something of an enigma, largely unknown even to longtime fans. He was a private man, giving few interviews. As a gay man in the early days of gay liberation and then in the era of the AIDS crisis, he may have been circumspect in regards to how fans and the public saw him. Let’s piece together his life and career to get a brief but cohesive look at Starfleet’s first fashion stylist...​

~ Maurice Molyneux, "William Ware Theiss: In & Out of Uniform" (2020)

 

[JTaylor]

Onscreen? It’s canon. Even the continuity glitches? Especially the continuity glitches. (Well, perhaps not especially). But it’s really that simple. Onscreen = canon. Easy peasy.

I like this, but we also have to consider the Kelvin Timeline, using this logic, the Kelvin Timeline would also be canon.

 

[cooleddie74]

Well, it is. But in its own timeline. It's just as official as the Prime series and movies, just in a different reality.

 

[Ovation]

I like this, but we also have to consider the Kelvin Timeline, using this logic, the Kelvin Timeline would also be canon.

Every alternate universe depicted onscreen is canon. Whenever people complain about “canon violations” they really mean “continuity errors or inconsistencies”. So Kelvinverse movies are totally part of the canon, though not in continuity with TOS (except for a few short bits).

 

[fireproof78]

I like this, but we also have to consider the Kelvin Timeline, using this logic, the Kelvin Timeline would also be canon.

It is.

Canon has zero to do with continuity.

William Ware Theiss would look at SNW T'Pring and probably say: "YOU'RE WELCOME." Theiss pioneered the "barely there" look on Trek women.

Probably, annoying as his approach was.

do find it interesting that many people find this to be objectionable and "a bridge too far" for a franchise that over its entire history has either put female characters into form-fitting uniforms and cat suits to accentuate their breasts and body lines, or very little clothing at all right up to the present day.

I find Trek's approach to female fashion quite objectionable.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

William Ware Theiss would look at SNW T'Pring and probably say: "YOU'RE WELCOME." Theiss pioneered the "barely there" look on Trek women.

Exactly, its a non-controversy. William Ware Theiss' exquisite, groundbreaking designs for TOS gave the franchise its own, memorable look (relatable, yet otherworldly) unlike any other sci-fi production (with others apeing his work in one way or another in the decades to follow). So yes, thank you, William Ware Theiss.

 

[Cryogenator]

I find Trek's approach to female fashion quite objectionable.

Outside of a couple infamous catsuits, which outfits do you find objectionable?

Many women still love the miniskirts and other revealing outfits from the sixties, hence they remain popular amongst female cosplayers (who are genuine fans, not just Instagram models). Grace Lee Whitney said, “I just didn’t think that the women should be in pants... I think I wanted to look like Flash Gordon.”

 

[fireproof78]

Outside of a couple infamous catsuits, which outfits do you find objectionable?

The female android in "What little girls are made of."

The thrall costume in "Gamesters."

Yar's sister's outfit.

Thsts off the top of my head.

 

[Citiprime]

You know it's possible that fashion trends might change a tad in the next 250 years.

It's also possible that there might be some changes to the human concept of modesty over that time, given that organized religion has faded away on Earth and presumably there's no longer an institutionalized cultural belief from which hardliners within those systems enforce women being covered in either hijabs, buqas, or other "appropriate" coverings in western cultures that were meant to instill feelings that they're "sinners" or "sluts" if they don't comply.

 

[fireproof78]

You know it's possible that fashion trends might change a tad in the next 250 years.

It's also possible that there might be some changes to the human concept of modesty over that time, given that organized religion has faded away on Earth and presumably there's no longer an institutionalized cultural belief from which hardliners within those systems enforce women being covered in either hijabs, buqas, or other "appropriate" coverings in western cultures that weren't meant to instill feelings that they're "sinners" or "sluts" if they don't.

Wow, no where did I imply I thought they were sinners or slurs. I honestly would prefer nudism for all humans, so my objection is not about modesty and more about objectification.

 

[Citiprime]

Wow, no where did I imply I thought they were sinners or slurs. I honestly would prefer nudism for all humans, so my objection is not about modesty and more about objectification.

I didn't say you did imply it.

If you're arguing that it's objectification for Desilu/Paramount to dress actresses in those costumes, that's one thing.

What my comment was about and what I'm saying is that, in-universe, in a culture 2 centuries in the future, the concepts of modesty and objectification might have drastically changed given that we know there have been massive cultural changes in human society.

How can there be objectification through appearance in a society where we've been told there's no sexism?

 

[fireproof78]

What my comment was about and what I'm saying is that, in-universe, in a culture 2 centuries in the future, the concepts of modesty and objectification might have drastically changed given that we know there have been massive cultural changes in human society.

How can there be objectification through appearance in a society where we've been told there's no sexism?

Probably because the outfits for women are markedly different to men. It still speaks do an underlying sexism.

 

[Cryogenator]

The female android in "What little girls are made of."

An absolutely iconic outfit!

The thrall costume in "Gamesters."

Against whom Kirk fought in a similar state of undress...

Yar's sister's outfit.

She wore a few, but I assume you mean the catsuit.

I honestly would prefer nudism for all humans, so my objection is not about modesty and more about objectification.

A nudist who hates catsuits!

 

[fireproof78]

An absolutely iconic outfit!
Against whom Kirk fought in a similar state of undress...

She wore a few, but I assume you mean the catsuit.

Poor outfit belonging in the trash.

Doesn't make it better.

The catsuit was the worst, but most of her wardrobe choices were all very bad.