"Space Warp"

[Crazy Eddie]

Fine. YOU explain how a space craft launched in 1996 managed to achieve FTL velocities without being equipped with warp drive. The most logical explanation is "Einstein was wrong [in the Trekiverse]."

Hardly. Given that we have multiple precedents for space warps and alien abductions of all kinds, it is far more logical to conclude that this was an example of one of the same processes than it is to throw out the entire body of physical law to explain one anomalous factoid.

No, multiple anomalous factoids which can be rectified by a single explanation. This fits better than dragging up multiple hypotheticals and introducing additional agents whose existence is also unknown. This being the trekiverse, one human scientist being wrong about one scientific theory isn't that much of a stretch.

And FYI, "special relativity" and "the entire body of physical law" are not the same thing. Not even close.

That's ridiculous. Scientists can argue over the details of their work without the basic ideas being incorrect.

Sure. And sometimes they can get some details right and get the basic idea disastrously wrong. By the time Barclay had a need to simulate Einstein, he was already to the point of re-writing the laws of physics from scratch.

So Einstein was probably wrong. Hell, Zephram Cochrane was probably wrong too. I doubt any physicist in the unvierse--or trekiverse--will ever be completely right. What's easy enough to concede is that Einstein was wrong about something that makes FTL velocities achievable even with conventional engines.

New science doesn't erase old science that has been proven valid, it just extends its reach.

Or else proves it invalid while patching the contradictions left in the theory. Anyway, since Einstein didn't do any production work on Star Trek, for any contradiction between Trek and Einstein, I'm inclined to give Trek the benefit of the doubt (at least in the context of its own universe).

Newton's laws still apply as low-velocity approximations of Einstein's laws,

And Einstein's laws probably apply as high-gravity approximations of Cochrane's law. It would be pretty useless if, say, Voyager 4 traveled outside the heliopause and discovered that the speed of light is actually several times faster outside of the sun's natural subspace field.

Newton was a physicist. What other context could "Newtonian" possibly have,

A drive system that produces movement through action/reaction relationships as per newton's law, as distinct from a drive system that produces movement through application of ficticious forces like warp fields and artificial gravity.

A small enough black hole in the Oort Cloud could go undetected

That wasn't a rehtorical question. As far as the Trekiverse is concerned, IS there a black hole on the outer edge of the solar system?

Dude... it's fiction. All of this is imaginary. Of course tachyon eddies wouldn't create a warp field, because tachyon eddies don't exist. But in the imaginary context of this made-up story we're talking about, they do, so there's no reason they couldn't create a warpfield as well.

Is this the Star Trek levitation trick? Where in one breath you tell me that the trekiverse HAS to be consistent with real physical laws and then five seconds later turn around and tell me "It's fiction, there's no reason why it can't do anything we want it to do."

And I don't suppose it's donned on you yet that the existence of tachyons, as described in that episode, would be impossible under Special Relativity?

Oh, come on. Star Trek did not invent the concept of warp drive.

Not the CONCEPT, no. In universe, however, there's nothing to connect space warp to general relativity, as Zephram Cochrane seems to have come up with the idea independently and various other races invented the concept hundreds of years before Einstein was ever born.

That doesn't answer the question.

They all have the same answer: "Because it's faster."

Newton's physics still work in the conditions for which they were defined. It's just their extrapolations beyond those conditions that were in error.

Probably same with Einstein in this case.

Of course the laws of physics apply. Those laws are not necessarily the laws WE know, considering the scientists of the 24th century know alot more than we do.

That is not how science works. New discoveries don't erase old knowledge that's been proven to be true.[/quote]
Unless that old knowledge has been proven to NOT be true when better information is discovered. Which, as you just pointed out, is exactly what happened to Newton.

Both Special and General Relativity have been observationally and experimentally verified thousands of times over.

That's true in OUR universe. Is it true in the Trekiverse?

 

[Myasishchev]

^Well, objects have relativistic mass. For example, Kirk's fists, when he punches any given villain. The energy of a punch is carried by the mass added to a hand by being accelerated to a greater velocity.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

^ I hope you're being funny, because I've already had to explain in at least one other thread that relativistic mass is only a mathematical approximation and objects do not REALLY gain mass when they are accelerated.

 

[Myasishchev]

^ I hope you're being funny, because I've already had to explain in at least one other thread that relativistic mass is only a mathematical approximation and objects do not REALLY gain mass when they are accelerated.

A box of mirrors with light in it weighs more than a box of mirrors without.

Though, actually, I am wrong--Kirk's fist (or at least his body as a whole) won't be any heavier (more massive) during a punch. The energy is already there. But his fist should be lighter (less massive) afterwards, as energy is transferred, through various biological processes, from Kirk's mitochondria to Khan's face.

If I'm not mistaken, this is more-or-less unverifiable by modern instruments, but required by general relativity, and no other physical theory provides a better explanation as to how energy is transferred inside a system.

 

[BBQ@Warp]

Bumping this post after 12 years! Ha

I’d like to add my 2 pennies worth... I agree that warp speed is used to describe FTL Tavel generally and not necessarily an engine that physically warps spacetime. I have a different theory on impulse though.. firstly I need to bring up a few things I don’t think are directly addressed in the trek verse.

1. Gravity.. I can’t think of any references to the gravity of other planets, this maybe part of how planets are classified ie M class but I can’t think of an example of when a planets gravity has been addressed so we have to assume that within the trekverse life only evolves on planets with 1 earth G or there is tech that helps stabilise the gravitational effects of other planets to make it suitable for the life form visiting that planet.

2. 1g enigines... it’s well known that if an engine could produce a constant 1g of acceleration lightspeed would be achieved in 1 Earth year and would travel about 0.5ly in the process. The issue here is relativistic effects are not negated (relativistic effects don’t seem to play a part in the trek verse anyway). At constant 1g acceleration we could cross the milky way in 12 years although 113,000 years would pass on Earth and if it were to take voyager 70 odd years to get home then warp is much slower than the described method.

Using this method would obviously use huge amounts of energy certainly more than fusion could produce over a long period and maybe more than a matter/antimatter reaction.

So I believe impulse drive is produced by an engine producing a maximum continuous acceleration of 1g but only for a short period of time.

So could a species be classed as warp capable without being able to generate a warp field? I believe the answer is yes, the 1g I talk about is comfortable to humans and for short times be pushed further (just look at the expanse). But what if a species evolves on a planet with more than 1 earth G? If their planet was say 10 earth G then they could stand acceleration much faster than ours and reach lightspeed far quicker. Interacting with a species with this technology would likely not violate the prime directive as, as far as I can work out, being “warp” capable isn’t expressly mentioned and a species able to reach light speed is very likely to be aware of other life in the galaxy.

 

[Unicron]

Bumping this post after 12 years! Ha

I’d like to add my 2 pennies worth... I agree that warp speed is used to describe FTL Tavel generally and not necessarily an engine that physically warps spacetime. I have a different theory on impulse though.. firstly I need to bring up a few things I don’t think are directly addressed in the trek verse.

1. Gravity.. I can’t think of any references to the gravity of other planets, this maybe part of how planets are classified ie M class but I can’t think of an example of when a planets gravity has been addressed so we have to assume that within the trekverse life only evolves on planets with 1 earth G or there is tech that helps stabilise the gravitational effects of other planets to make it suitable for the life form visiting that planet.

2. 1g enigines... it’s well known that if an engine could produce a constant 1g of acceleration lightspeed would be achieved in 1 Earth year and would travel about 0.5ly in the process. The issue here is relativistic effects are not negated (relativistic effects don’t seem to play a part in the trek verse anyway). At constant 1g acceleration we could cross the milky way in 12 years although 113,000 years would pass on Earth and if it were to take voyager 70 odd years to get home then warp is much slower than the described method.

Using this method would obviously use huge amounts of energy certainly more than fusion could produce over a long period and maybe more than a matter/antimatter reaction.

So I believe impulse drive is produced by an engine producing a maximum continuous acceleration of 1g but only for a short period of time.

So could a species be classed as warp capable without being able to generate a warp field? I believe the answer is yes, the 1g I talk about is comfortable to humans and for short times be pushed further (just look at the expanse). But what if a species evolves on a planet with more than 1 earth G? If their planet was say 10 earth G then they could stand acceleration much faster than ours and reach lightspeed far quicker. Interacting with a species with this technology would likely not violate the prime directive as, as far as I can work out, being “warp” capable isn’t expressly mentioned and a species able to reach light speed is very likely to be aware of other life in the galaxy.

First, welcome to the board. Second, we prefer that threads this old not get bumped for various reasons. You're welcome to start a new thread if you wish, but I'm content to let this one drop back to sleep. Thanks.