Also they would have had to pay both ladies for a return appearance and probably the writers of their original stories, especially if said original writers were not scripting the stories in question and the suits didn't like paying out!
JB
Scotty as second officer
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Also they would have had to pay both ladies for a return appearance and probably the writers of their original stories, especially if said original writers were not scripting the stories in question and the suits didn't like paying out!
JB
Bah! Real world problems ruin all our fun.
I've thought that, too, and even that WNMHGB might be in a transitional period, since Dehner's record shows just PhD and no rank. (I don't apply any prequel information to my OS opinions!)
Yeah a 21 year old with a PhD. And Mitchell a 23 year old Lt-commander. I wonder if the writers assumed Starfleet would recruit children at this point?
I always thought Dehner was a psychiatrist though, so she would have a medical degree (7 years) plus her recorded PhD (4 years) and would have started training at age 10...
I guess she must be a psychologist (7 years total) so she could have chilled until age 14.
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Of course, those record cards would be likely to refer to the characters' age, weight, height and the like at the time of the PSI testing, rather than to their current specs. After all, the cards do give age, rather than time of birth; we can well believe age is a relevant parameter in PSI assessment. And that the testing would be conducted early on, to assess the potential/risk these people would present in their future jobs.
In comparison, rank or academic status shouldn't be medically relevant, and may well be the current one.
Timo Saloniemi
In comparison, rank or academic status shouldn't be medically relevant, and may well be the current one.
Timo Saloniemi
Mitchell was Kirk's student at the Academy.
Good points. In "Tomorrow is Yesterday" Kirk says they are a combines service, even though most of Starfleet seems naval.
Maybe the three shirt colors are to represent the legacy of the three services which combined to make the Federation Starfleet. Lime for a futuristic military service, khaki/gold for a futuristic naval service, and blue for a civilian service.
That would also explain why the 5 total TOS/TAS mission patches (Command, Science, Support, Security and Medical) get used across different shirt colors. They aren't errors; the shirt represents how you serve, the patch indicates who you report to, or vise versa. Red would be added later, and maybe that's why it is worn by higher ranking officers in TNG.
Prequels/alternate universes don't affect my TOS opinions unless I want them to, but this system would make a lot of sense on the Kelvin.
Sorry, five TOS/TAS "mission patches"?
Yep. Just like TMP had six colors in a circle around the Enterprise Emblem, and TOS five symbols inside of it.
There were the "star," the "planet," the "swirl," we all know and love,
But also there was a "C" shaped symbol worn by blueshirt bridge security guards in "The Cage," and Chapel had a Red Cross added to her patch.
The "C" insignia was seen only in "The Cage"* and we have no idea what division that represented. "Support" and "security" always used the "swirl" in the series.
So, I take issue that the existence of of the "C" emblem implies differentiation between "support" and "security." It doesn't.
* - As per the Memory Alpha article cited by @NXmas-01 below, I must correct myself. Leslie appears to wear it in WNMHGB.
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Fair enough. I was merely suggesting that the five patches meant something about the organizational structure, whereas the shirt perhaps means something about assignment. I went with Security for the C patch because someone else said that is what it meant once. I wish that somehow, somewhere there was documentation on what it meant, because I thought it was cool.
Sad thing is, if TOS had used a red shirt (khaki in the pilots) for Engineering and Security, but a different patch for each, that would have worked so well...
Actually, the Mres in TAS wears a sciences patch with a red uniform. I'm all for that approach because
a) it works like TMP
and
b) Why would you bother having an insignia that denoted the exact same thing that your entire brightly-colored shirt indicates?
If the patch was just for the ship/branch of service, then why wouldn't be the same patch for everybody on a given vessel and just let the shirt tell your position?
Sad thing is, if TOS had used a red shirt (khaki in the pilots) for Engineering and Security, but a different patch for each, that would have worked so well...
Actually, the Mres in TAS wears a sciences patch with a red uniform. I'm all for that approach because
a) it works like TMP
and
b) Why would you bother having an insignia that denoted the exact same thing that your entire brightly-colored shirt indicates?
If the patch was just for the ship/branch of service, then why wouldn't be the same patch for everybody on a given vessel and just let the shirt tell your position?
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I’ve always favored “cadet”, but MA insists on ignoring Occam and believes it means “security”, which starts with a silent “C”, I guess.
OK.
So, as per the Memory Alpha article, by the way I think your link should be fixed to http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Unnamed_USS_Enterprise_(NCC-1701)_personnel, I've learned something today.
Leslie was wearing the C-insignia in WNMHGB while he was unambiguously acting as a security guard. I did not know this about Leslie's costume in the second pilot.
screencap: http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x03hd/wherenomanhasgonebeforehd500.jpg
Man, the things that can be spotted in HD screencaps.....
So, OK, I eat my words.
All of this is actual evidence that the original intention was for the C-badge to stand for security. Why it was dropped, I don't know.
@Mres_was_framed!
@NXmas-01
Actually, I intended to link to the image, but I’m glad you linked the whole article.
As for Leslie, that might be a C. Or the science circles. Or that weird, not-star thing. I can’t tell. Certainly he was doing security stuff, so I can see the connection.
Those shrugging kids in “The Cage”, though, seem more like interns or midshipmen or … cadets. To me, this seems quite clear. But I’m fine with it remaining…
The C might also stand for Medical, for those who can't stomach Christian symbols or old Roman torture devices but are fine with crescent moons. In the aftermath of the Rigelian misadventure, Pike would do well to keep his bridge stocked in medics, in case Spock's leg finally gives or Number One can't maintain that stoic face any longer. And Gary Mitchell is certainly in need of medical attention...
As for shirt colors, an association with departments is first made in the TNG era, where O'Brien and Eddington both speak of the career-defining role of the gold shirt. Earlier on, they could mean just about anything. Duty shifts is my guess: Kirk commands the Gold shift, Spock the Blue one, and Scotty the Red one, but during important adventures and alerts (i.e. every TOS adventure, since those never start with "We are placidly cruising while an adventure suddenly falls upon us" like on a TNG occasion, but in medias res), Kirk summons specialists and department heads regardless of their shift.
Timo Saloniemi
As for shirt colors, an association with departments is first made in the TNG era, where O'Brien and Eddington both speak of the career-defining role of the gold shirt. Earlier on, they could mean just about anything. Duty shifts is my guess: Kirk commands the Gold shift, Spock the Blue one, and Scotty the Red one, but during important adventures and alerts (i.e. every TOS adventure, since those never start with "We are placidly cruising while an adventure suddenly falls upon us" like on a TNG occasion, but in medias res), Kirk summons specialists and department heads regardless of their shift.
Timo Saloniemi
The biggest headscratcher for me vis-a-vis the "traditional" interpretation of the TOS colors was the Security Team v "Phaser Room" Team (Retroactively Armory I guess). Phaser Room should be "Engineering" and wear Red, whereas Security as a separate disclipine would responsibly be "General Duties"/Command (USCG ME is a Deck Department, RN Regulators are classed as "General Service") which includes Warfare, Comms, Security, Sciences and Intel) and therefore wear Gold not Red.
NB: The 2260s is the only era where Armory and Security are different which have this issue (generally they are grouped together). The TMP uniforms placed Security with "services" (presumably Quartermaster, Yeoman, Mess etc) and didn't specifically ID the Weapons Department (likely Red for non-Bridge Officers); whereas the "Monster Maroons" offered two security-related departments (Windsor Green for Starbase & Ship's Security, and Navy Blue for a specialist unit (IIRC ID'd as marines in some background material, but neither the movie or the novelisation are specific on this point AFAIK. A DEVGRU or even SRT/REACTHRT/DOG analogue would seem more likely)
NB: The 2260s is the only era where Armory and Security are different which have this issue (generally they are grouped together). The TMP uniforms placed Security with "services" (presumably Quartermaster, Yeoman, Mess etc) and didn't specifically ID the Weapons Department (likely Red for non-Bridge Officers); whereas the "Monster Maroons" offered two security-related departments (Windsor Green for Starbase & Ship's Security, and Navy Blue for a specialist unit (IIRC ID'd as marines in some background material, but neither the movie or the novelisation are specific on this point AFAIK. A DEVGRU or even SRT/REACTHRT/DOG analogue would seem more likely)
I don't see Armory/Tactical and Security being grouped together in any era much. There's a personal union in TNG, through the person of Worf; and another in VOY, through the person of Tuvok. But those are officers filling in for fallen comrades, and in the latter case without opportunity for relief. In contrast, Security and Tactical are not combined aboard the Defiant, say - even though the cast there is small, the consoles are separate, thus necessitating the use of nameless extras on occasion.
FWIW, O'Brien says he got a gold shirt when becoming Maxwell's Tactical Officer. That was way back in 2347, though: perhaps he was wearing the Monster Maroons at the time, and his gold collar would become a red jumpsuit by the time of TNG where the folks firing starship guns tend to wear red?
Timo Saloniemi
FWIW, O'Brien says he got a gold shirt when becoming Maxwell's Tactical Officer. That was way back in 2347, though: perhaps he was wearing the Monster Maroons at the time, and his gold collar would become a red jumpsuit by the time of TNG where the folks firing starship guns tend to wear red?
Timo Saloniemi
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