Saucer-Rim Windows

[CuttingEdge100]

I know on the Enterprise Refit, the eight large windows (four top, four bottom) on the right side of the impulse engine is the rec-room.

But what about the other windows on the saucer rim? I mean there's no quarters in that area (according to most diagrams they are located further in)... are there just windows in the outer corridors?

 

[Timo]

It can actually be debated whether those four plus four windows are for the Rec Deck. That is, they cannot be for the Rec Deck - it's physically impossible. If the facility is as high as shown, especially in relation to the height of the windows, it simply won't fit on the saucer rim.

It could then be argued that the Rec Deck is somewhere close to the core of the saucer, without windows, and the interior squares showing an outside view are actually just viewscreens. Which frees all the rim windows for other uses.

Andrew Probert has been a proponent of the idea that the Enterprises should have small, intimate contemplative spaces with a view to space on the saucer rim. IIRC, the TMP novelization mentions that concept, too - something of a counterpart to holosuites when it comes to keeping the personnel happy and sane. The rim windows could be for such rooms, or then for all sorts of more officious lounges and meeting rooms, or VIP quarters.

OTOH, the Avenger Class Blueprints by Mike Rupprecht and Alex Rosenzweig display a layout where the windows simply open to a rim corridor. Generally speaking, the outer rim of the saucer would have to be considered an "extension" of the original structure, accounting for the greater diameter of the TMP saucer vs. the TOS one; one then wonders why the extension was made, that is, what crucially important spaces were added.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[FalTorPan]

Generally speaking, the outer rim of the saucer would have to be considered an "extension" of the original structure, accounting for the greater diameter of the TMP saucer vs. the TOS one; one then wonders why the extension was made, that is, what crucially important spaces were added.

Assuming the TMP ship's warp propulsion system operates anything like the TNG-era systems, maybe the new saucer ring is where they stuffed all the deuterium slush. I'm kidding, but it actually does make a certain amount of sense.

 

[Timo]

So the windows would be fill ports, or aids for monitoring the fuel level?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[CuttingEdge100]

Timo,

It can actually be debated whether those four plus four windows are for the Rec Deck. That is, they cannot be for the Rec Deck - it's physically impossible. If the facility is as high as shown, especially in relation to the height of the windows, it simply won't fit on the saucer rim.

Well, it's obvious even according to Andrew Probert's drawings that the Rec Room was two decks high (which was the height of the saucer rim) and then tapered to one deck high as you went further in as the saucer height curved up.

I'm wondering if the schematics which depict the location of the quarters are really that good an idea. The Enterprise from what I remember was supposed to have like 12 labs on it. There has to be room for them as well as quarters... was that factored in?

Is there enough space in the rim to fit at a bunch of quarters around those windows two decks high (I ask this as the saucer curves up not too far in from where the rim is)


CuttingEdge100
BTW: Regarding scaling errors -- What's really screwed up in scale is the officer's lounge windows. Those things would have to be GIGANTIC... considering that the bridge is one deck and if you look at the design how thin one deck is on the ships hull and how big those windows are, they're like 2.5 to 3 decks tall...

The docks/hatches are also scaled a little bit large considering the height of a deck as well...

 

[GodThingFormerly]

Do you guys remember the images Shane Johnson posted here a few years back when he was drumming up support for a 2nd Edition of Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise? I managed to find one on my laptop HDD:

Does anybody else have the others?

TGT

 

[Mysterion]

^^^^^^
I am so disappointed that Johnson wasn't able to do that project. That drawing and the others he posted at the time were very spiffy.

 

[GodThingFormerly]

Found 'em:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c339/thegodthing/refitviews6wz.jpg
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c339/thegodthing/1701asample17my.jpg
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c339/thegodthing/1701asample28ks.jpg

Needless to say, these image files were created by and remain the property of Shane Johnson and absolutely no attempt was made to supersede his copyright by my posting said files at TrekBBS.com with the intention of adding some slight measure of meaningful content to one of the more obtuse threads started by an evidently bored poster yadda yadda...

TGT

 

[FalTorPan]

It sure looked like he and his partners on the project had made tremendous progress, both on the old-school-styled NCC-1701 and the color drawings of the NCC-1701-A. Maybe both sets of drawings actually were finished.

And who knows... with 2009 being the year of the new Trek flick and the 30th anniversary of ST:TMP, maybe Shane Johnson's new drawings will see publication.

Maybe.

 

[GodThingFormerly]

Maybe.

I wouldn't hold my breath. The Pocket nomenklatura in TrekLit made it perfectly clear on numerous occasions (i.e., usually in response to threads on the subject created by Dayton3) that due to declining sales over several years they are no longer interested in producing "Treknical" publications.

TGT

 

[FalTorPan]

I'm definitely not holding my breath. It's a shame that Johnson doesn't seem interested in "kicking it old school" and self-publishing the drawings. Then again, he's an established author now of both tie-in publications and original fiction, so it might be especially bad mojo to self-publish.

 

[Turbo]

Firstly, TPTB at Pocket have made it clear that they would love to publish more Trek books, including nonfiction, but the combination of low sales along with the rise of the internet sites, especially Memory Alpha and Ex Astris Scientia, have made Treknical publications unprofitable.

Secondly, I'm not sure that Pocket has the rights to publish Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise.

 

[FalTorPan]

Secondly, I'm not sure that Pocket has the rights to publish Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise.

They did 20 years ago. Why wouldn't they have those rights now?

 

[Maurice]

It can actually be debated whether those four plus four windows are for the Rec Deck. That is, they cannot be for the Rec Deck - it's physically impossible. If the facility is as high as shown, especially in relation to the height of the windows, it simply won't fit on the saucer rim.

And the TMP engine room corridor doesn't fit where it's supposed to go, the TOS shuttlecraft interior doesn't fit into it's exterior mockup, nor does the lower deck of the Jupiter 2 fit into that ship at all, and on and on and on...

If the Rec Deck's not at those windows, why is the starboard nacelle visible from said windows at an angle that matches the block of 8 matching windows on the exterior? Or does the intent of the production crew, including the set designer who designed said room get superceded because said set designer made the room too big?

 

[FalTorPan]

If we were to take a slide rule to the sets of TMP (and TWOK), with particular attention paid to the exterior walls of the sets having windows, I suspect that we would find that few if any of them would "fit" inside the ship.

 

[Timo]

How many such sets do exist, though? The only TMP sets with windows would have been the Rec Deck and the suite where the big three argued - and the latter was already interpreted as an interior room plus viewscreen when the scene was created, since the set originally intended to match exterior windows was never built.

The next time we get an "impossible" window set is only in ST5, with the bow lounge and its steering wheel. The other sets, or what is shown of them, more or less fit the bill - even the ST5 shuttlebay which is false perspective piled upon trickery stacked upon smoke and mirrors.

IMHO, the ideal choice would be to have the Enterprise of TMP and TOS be a bit bigger than conventionally thought, so the saucer concavity would not present the problem of 1.5 decks inside. That would solve all the bridge problems, too. But given the currently accepted confines, the easy solution IMHO is to move the sets around until they do fit - something that can relatively easily be done with both the offenders, the Rec Deck and Main Engineering.

(Really, if the Rec Deck were moved, the exterior windows could then be reassigned to a series of smaller lounges, including the one where the big three had their argument!)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Maurice]

Which totally misses the point that this isn't an isolated incident to that room, TMP or even Star Trek as a whole. The interior sets of most sitcoms totally don't match the exteriors chosen to represent them. The apartment lobby in The Bonfire of the Vanities doesn't fit or even match the building exterior. Are we to start rearranging them as well?

The TMP people designed a large set and went to all the trouble of putting matching windows on the model and a huge backdrop painting outside the windows to set where it was. Given all that, it's patently absurd to argue that the room cound be anywhere else just because it doesn't fit within the actual contours of the miniature designed to represent the ship.

We accept that Spock can stand upright in the shuttlecraft even though the exterior mockup is clearly not tall enough, so why not give the other sets the same break?

 

[Timo]

What would be won by that? The Trek universe as portrayed does not require all of the sets to be aphysical or impossible. It only features a limited number of such errors, and then a wide fuzzy area of things that can be interpreted as non-errors with no in-universe penalty.

At one point, Kirk may have three nephews; at another, just one is shown. Nothing is lost if we say that three is right even when just one is shown, and nothing is won by insisting that it was a "writer error" that we must "accept".

Really, having the Rec Deck at the center of the saucer would have many advantages. The two prominent turboshafts would have a legitimate placement, then, rather than truncating in hard vacuum at both ends. The placement would match the location of TOS recreation facilities on a direct path between the bridge and the transporters, as in "Let That Be", as well as the idea that a Rec Room could span more than one deck. And the rim windows would be freed for what Probert wanted to have all along: contemplative little lounges with a direct starview, one of which we actually saw in the movie!

What is the downside? Contradicted intention of people who get contradicted in basically every job they do anyway, and still produce perfectly enjoyable results?

Most of the Enterprise design done for TMP was interpretation of things that had been ill defined in TOS originally, and much of that design represented contradiction of original intent, or insertion of functional meaning where there once was only random aesthetics. Why stop the process at that? Paramount didn't - they built TNG technology on interpretation of TMP, again contradicting things that had never been stated, and establishing things never originally imagined.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[CuttingEdge100]

DS9Sega,

And the TMP engine room corridor doesn't fit where it's supposed to go

That was actually acknowledged if not directly -- Andrew Probert actually had a deck plan drawn up of the Refit-Enterprise, and he actually drew the corridor out into nowhere...

the TOS shuttlecraft interior doesn't fit into it's exterior mockup

Really? How so?

nor does the lower deck of the Jupiter 2 fit into that ship at all, and on and on and on...

I know I should know this, but what's Jupiter 2?

If the Rec Deck's not at those windows, why is the starboard nacelle visible from said windows at an angle that matches the block of 8 matching windows on the exterior?

That's because the person who said those eight windows are not the Rec Deck are wrong: They are the Rec-Deck windows.


FalTorPan,

If we were to take a slide rule to the sets of TMP (and TWOK), with particular attention paid to the exterior walls of the sets having windows, I suspect that we would find that few if any of them would "fit" inside the ship.

That's actually a very good point. I'm amazed someone hasn't done that already...


Timo,

IMHO, the ideal choice would be to have the Enterprise of TMP and TOS be a bit bigger than conventionally thought, so the saucer concavity would not present the problem of 1.5 decks inside. That would solve all the bridge problems, too. But given the currently accepted confines, the easy solution IMHO is to move the sets around until they do fit - something that can relatively easily be done with both the offenders, the Rec Deck and Main Engineering.

What do you mean 1.5 decks inside?


CuttingEdge100

 

[Tigger]

I know I should know this, but what's Jupiter 2?

"Lost in Space"