Romulans in DS9 vs TNG

[Photon]

I always read the Rommies were passionate ppl, differing from their Vulcan cousins in many ways.

TNG (seemingly) portrayed the Romulans in this light (both Romulans inThe Enemy), Tomalak, and others.

DS9 portrayed them as very cerebral, dispassionate ppl. Now, the Rommies on DS9 were mostly in high command but still. it seems very different to me.

Opines are welcomed

 

[Seven of Five]

I love DS9, but I think that TNG used them in a more interesting way - particularly during its third season. At the end of the day though, DS9 was quite far away from the Romulan Empire, and they weren't a big part of the show, even when they joined the war.

Vreenak was all kinds of awesome though.

 

[horatio83]

Vulcans suppress their emotions, Romulans channel them into imperialism. Both cultures are dogmatic, the Vulcans via their rigid culture that features unenlightened institutions like arranged marriage, the Romulans via a police state that makes sure that the dogma of unlimited expansion is not questioned (the deleted scene from "The Aenar" shows this most directly).
I don't see any difference between the Romulans in TNG and DS9, except that in TNG we saw Jarok and some Romulan civilians who might have been less icy because they are not / no more embedded in the military apparatus. Another difference might be that in TNG they stayed a bit closer to their Roman origins. At least Jarok's suicide resembled Roman suicide to keep one's honour intact.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The Rommies have never been fleshed out adequately.

The Vulcans are violently emotional people who use logic to repress their emotions so they can have any kind of civilized society at all.

Okay, then where does that leave the Romulans? Why can they get away without logic? What do they use in its place?

My theory is that their logic-substitute is extreme xenophobia. They direct their hostility outwards and therefore it doesn't upend their society.

This could be an interesting basis for drama since it puts them in the same category as the Borg - there's something about them that makes them inherently impossible to make peace with. At best, they can stay in their corner and everyone else in theirs. But they can't never be Federation pals like the Klingons. It also separates them neatly from the Vulcans, so that the Romulans don't just become Vulcans with bigger sneers.

That's just one answer, I'm sure there are others. But before the Rommies can be fleshed out, this conundrum needs some sort of answer.

Vulcans suppress their emotions, Romulans channel them into imperialism.

Imperialism implies expansionism. The Romulans have had periods of hermetic withdrawl from the galaxy. The Feds are more relentlessly imperialistic!

 

[Anwar]

It goes all the way back to TOS, because the Romulans there certainly weren't xenophobic or incredibly hostile to anything non-Romulan.

Right off the bat, they were shown to be honorable types who weren't always clamoring for war and death.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The problem with the just-honorable Romulans is...that's boring. And also fails to answer the conundrum about their raging Vucanoid emotions (granted, that was no doubt a later addition to the story, but needs to be integrated now.)

 

[horatio83]

Romulans have had periods of hermetic withdrawl from the galaxy. The Feds are more relentlessly imperialistic!

I guess you refer to the periods of lack of conflict with the Federation. I imagine that they have been busy deep in the Beta Quadrant, on their other borders, during these times.

 

[Nerys Myk]

It goes all the way back to TOS, because the Romulans there certainly weren't xenophobic or incredibly hostile to anything non-Romulan.

Right off the bat, they were shown to be honorable types who weren't always clamoring for war and death.

One Romulan commander and a Centurion were shown to he honorable. Hardly representative of the entire race. Those same two were also shown complaining that the current crop of Romulans weren't exactly "up to snuff".

Though given Spock's assessment of the Romulans from the previous Century, perhaps they never were.

Earth believes the Romulans to be warlike, cruel, treacherous,

 

[7thsealord]

Romulans have had periods of hermetic withdrawl from the galaxy. The Feds are more relentlessly imperialistic!

I guess you refer to the periods of lack of conflict with the Federation. I imagine that they have been busy deep in the Beta Quadrant, on their other borders, during these times.

"Matters elsewhere have taken our attention ..."

 

[Photon]

The problem with the just-honorable Romulans is...that's boring. And also fails to answer the conundrum about their raging Vucanoid emotions (granted, that was no doubt a later addition to the story, but needs to be integrated now.)

The Romulans don't seem to be that honorable at first blush. Pulling strings from afar and goading others into war. I think if Sisko had been capt of the E-D, he'd have the Fed in a war.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Romulans have had periods of hermetic withdrawl from the galaxy. The Feds are more relentlessly imperialistic!

I guess you refer to the periods of lack of conflict with the Federation. I imagine that they have been busy deep in the Beta Quadrant, on their other borders, during these times.

Mebee. We don't know that. Maybe they were seeing to internal affairs.

The Rommies are still largely a blank slate. What we know is inconsistent. It will take some development to build them into a species that has its own unique identity that doesn't simply duplicate others (Klingons, Cardassians), is a good basis for ongoing drama, and makes all the pieces click into a consistent mosaic.

 

[Photon]

Romulans have had periods of hermetic withdrawl from the galaxy. The Feds are more relentlessly imperialistic!

I guess you refer to the periods of lack of conflict with the Federation. I imagine that they have been busy deep in the Beta Quadrant, on their other borders, during these times.

Mebee. We don't know that. Maybe they were seeing to internal affairs.

The Rommies are still largely a blank slate. What we know is inconsistent. It will take some development to build them into a species that has its own unique identity that doesn't simply duplicate others (Klingons, Cardassians), is a good basis for ongoing drama, and makes all the pieces click into a consistent mosaic.

Totally agree. The Romulans have portrayed differently from TOS to Ent. I want future-Trek to really explore these guys. I want them to not be honorable. I want them to be war-like, and aggressive, xenophobic and really, just nasty ppl.

 

[muzzleflash]

the Romulans via a police state that makes sure that the dogma of unlimited expansion is not questioned (the deleted scene from "The Aenar" shows this most directly).

Actually from what I gathered from TNG, the Romulan Empire is not a police state. They have a senate, which seems to imply that it is composed of elected members.

From the episode where Troi disguises as a Romulan, the dialogue from the Romulan commander seems to suggest that the Romulan Empire is a relatively free society (at least for Romulans), and that oppression against its citizens originates from the Tal Shiar, whose power, over time, has grown to surpass the actual legitimate government of Romulus.

 

[Nerys Myk]

the Romulans via a police state that makes sure that the dogma of unlimited expansion is not questioned (the deleted scene from "The Aenar" shows this most directly).

Actually from what I gathered from TNG, the Romulan Empire is not a police state. They have a senate, which seems to imply that it is composed of elected members.

From the episode where Troi disguises as a Romulan, the dialogue from the Romulan commander seems to suggest that the Romulan Empire is a relatively free society (at least for Romulans), and that oppression against its citizens originates from the Tal Shiar, whose power, over time, has grown to surpass the actual legitimate government of Romulus.

Depends on much power the senate really has. The Imperial Roman Senate had very little power.

 

[Anwar]

TOS mentions the Romulan Praetor, who had enough power to be mentioned and respected by the crew of the BoP.

Of course, the Praetor could just be the Supreme Military Commander who keeps a powerless Senate around for appearances.

They've never been clear on Romulan society (intentional, I suppose).

 

[JaxsBrokenHeart]

I remember I had a story concept involving the the idea that affairs in the Empire were much more tumultuous and chaotic than were let on, specifically because Romulan passions were not as well repressed as Vulcan's. Thus they maintained a cool disposition in public as cover. Even had a theory that withdrawal period prior to "The Neutral Zone" was essentially the Empire trying to fix vast internal problems which, because they largely occured in the Beta Quadrant, were largely unknown by the Federation and others.

 

[7thsealord]

TOS mentions the Romulan Praetor, who had enough power to be mentioned and respected by the crew of the BoP.

Of course, the Praetor could just be the Supreme Military Commander who keeps a powerless Senate around for appearances.

They've never been clear on Romulan society (intentional, I suppose).

If parallels continue to be drawn with the Romans (or, indeed, with many other governments as well), the authority that a specific position has could vary a lot over time.

Much would depend on which person / family / faction is currently running things, the individual actually in that position, that individual's influence / popularity (or lack thereof), how good a job they SEEM to be doing, how well / badly the Empire as a whole is doing, and so on.

So (for example), one Praetor could be the entire Senate's bitch and another, by virtue of influence and/or personality, tells the Senate what he will do - and they go along with it.

 

[Anwar]

I had an idea for a re-conceptualization for the Romulans in a Trek AU a while back that tried to make them more distinct from the Klingons and Cardassians:

I would make the Romulan "Empire" a semi-repressive democracy/republic where there are some Old Families in power in the Military and Government but for the most part they are all democratically elected officials and volunteers in the Army/Navy who earned their rank through service and ability. The Tal Shiar does exist, but it was originally created by the Elected Officials to make sure that the Aristocrats weren't subverting the will of the general populace; it grew in power to a semi-autonomous secret police/spy organization as the Romulans went off world and began conquering others.

The core difference between the Romulans and the Feds would be that the Rommies have a "Manifest Destiny" mindset and see the Federation as a legitimate rival to this while at the same time their ideological opposite. However they do treat the species in their Empire who joined voluntarily and those who collaborate as more equal with a right to representation (but still obeying the Romulans in the end).

 

[7thsealord]

I had an idea for a re-conceptualization for the Romulans in a Trek AU a while back that tried to make them more distinct from the Klingons and Cardassians:

I would make the Romulan "Empire" a semi-repressive democracy/republic where there are some Old Families in power in the Military and Government but for the most part they are all democratically elected officials and volunteers in the Army/Navy who earned their rank through service and ability. The Tal Shiar does exist, but it was originally created by the Elected Officials to make sure that the Aristocrats weren't subverting the will of the general populace; it grew in power to a semi-autonomous secret police/spy organization as the Romulans went off world and began conquering others.

The core difference between the Romulans and the Feds would be that the Rommies have a "Manifest Destiny" mindset and see the Federation as a legitimate rival to this while at the same time their ideological opposite. However they do treat the species in their Empire who joined voluntarily and those who collaborate as more equal with a right to representation (but still obeying the Romulans in the end).

Sounds good.

The 'Manifest Destiny' thing isn't too different from some of what has been seen already. Have to say, the lack of non-Romulans in their space, and non-Klingons in theirs, has always struck me as odd. Federation space is adjacent to both, and it has more sentient races than one can shake a starship at.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I want future-Trek to really explore these guys. I want them to not be honorable. I want them to be war-like, and aggressive, xenophobic and really, just nasty ppl.

Or, maybe their idea of honor is different from the Feds'.

Actually from what I gathered from TNG, the Romulan Empire is not a police state. They have a senate, which seems to imply that it is composed of elected members.

I've gotten the distinct impression that Romulans have an internally egalitarian society and they behave very differently with each other vs. with outsiders.

I remember I had a story concept involving the the idea that affairs in the Empire were much more tumultuous and chaotic than were let on, specifically because Romulan passions were not as well repressed as Vulcan's. Thus they maintained a cool disposition in public as cover. Even had a theory that withdrawal period prior to "The Neutral Zone" was essentially the Empire trying to fix vast internal problems which, because they largely occured in the Beta Quadrant, were largely unknown by the Federation and others.

That's a good idea too.