Rant about the Borg Queen

[Phoenix219]

I like the unstoppable cosmic eldritch abomination. The absolute terror and hopelessness. Lets say the only way to defeat something like that is to literally go back and stop its creation. Or somehow protect your galaxy from them ever finding you.... like some big energy barrier? Or thats what godlike entities are there for, or why humanoids ascend to that level, or what Q's involvement was for. Something to cohesively tie things together more. I liked the novelverse with the doomsday machine as an anti borg weapon when i was a kid. And lets say they remove them from ever existing, and then they pop up again from another universe. there were ways to keep that type of force of nature threat going a bit longer. but hindsight is always ... hindsight.

 

[Lord Exor]

At first they still tried to present her as more of an 'avatar' of the collective rather than an individual ('you imply a disparity where none exists; I am the Collective'), but I think that distinction got lost over the years, when Voyager had her talking about which species she belonged to before assimilation, and so on.

The intention with the character was never an avatar, so they weren't really changing anything in Voyager.

 

[Shawnster]

I'm thinking about the Queen came after Locutus and because of Locutus, but then because of the time travel stuff started a rewrite-loop where she ended up before Locutus also, because of timey whimey stuff during first contact. we didn't technically see her until AFTER the time travel happens.

I think this is an intriguing idea. I never would have been open to ideas that the past has been constantly rewritten by meddling time war shenanigans but Trek has laid that foundation ever since ENT

 

[publiusr]

, but couldn't she have manipulated him into making him feel more human and done all the skin replacement stuff without banging him?

This is why I think the Queen is an outsider…more cenobite than Borg.

I see her similar to the parents of Seven of Nine, but selfish…she has a type of eternal life now—lots of drones at her beck and call. The Ardala of Buck Rogers, just with leather and piercings.

She assimilated them more than they, her.

Borg are naturally ace/incels…starting off as a hive mind.

I think she fooled them into the notion of having a leader. The Daleks in becoming machine creatures, reached a stalemate with the Movellans—and looked for individuality to break the deadlock.

She sold them on that idea—that’s my guess.

Q-Who took place before her arrival…in my head canon…she, the Anna Sorokin of Star Trek:

Anna Delvey - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I would not be surprised if she heard about Crushers nanites, and used them to get into the hive.

There were no tubules prior to First Contact. She pointed out how quickly she got in—and came to a mutual understanding.

Cross Jane Goodall with Angelique from Hellraiser—and you have the Borg Queen.

 

[Shawnster]

Of course, there is has been more than one queen. They get replaced. And with Jurati there are 2 queens at the same time (at least)

 

[Lord Exor]

Of course, there is has been more than one queen. They get replaced. And with Jurati there are 2 queens at the same time (at least)

There doesn't have to be. Nothing suggests more than one Queen (aside from timeline shenanigans) in any canon media, and all the characters treat her as the same person every time they encounter her/speak of her. First Contact itself nixes the concept of multiple Queens by directly addressing the fact that she's been destroyed multiple times, yet can somehow continue to exist as the same person. She's still hung up on Locutus, considers Jack her offspring, and invokes her idiosyncratic penchant for Latin names, which wouldn't make any sense if the Collective had 5000 different independent, disposable Queens rather than one at the center of everything. She wouldn't have a distinct personality, and she wouldn't prioritize her own survival over the rest of the Collective; because, you know, they wouldn't have any need for that kind of individuality in the first place. Imagine if every theoretical Queen exhibited this level of selfish behavior, and how chaotic and inefficient that would be.

No, she exhibits selfish, unique behavior because she's the only Queen they've ever had, and the Collective as we know it is built around her, not the other way around.

 

[Shawnster]

I wasn't necessarily meaning multiple queens at the same time (except in the case of the Jurati Queen). I meant one is destroyed and replaced. FC Queen is not the same Queen Janeway faced.

 

[Lord Exor]

I wasn't necessarily meaning multiple queens at the same time (except in the case of the Jurati Queen). I meant one is destroyed and replaced. FC Queen is not the same Queen Janeway faced.

It is, just not the same physical body. It's the same person just as the Queen present "off-screen" in BOBW is the same person in First Contact.

 

[David cgc]

Even Picard's "blow them up at the specific area", ignoring the fact he could send that information from where he was and thus save a lot more lives and equipment in the process, is also antithetical as clearly far less than 78% of that Cube was damaged.

The way I interpret that scene is that it wasn't some Death Star exhaust port that had always been there, but a momentary situational weakness. Picard gives the direction to which point to target after hearing the Borg's internal communications, and then waits for an age before finally telling the fleet to begin firing at a specific moment.

So, the Borg ship was heavily damaged, and exploiting its in-built redundancy and repairing abilities. Picard hears it coordinating how to maintain functionality, and hears that one specific conduit or component is about to have a heavy load put on it as they route around other damaged sections in order to repair them. So the fleet fires on that one component that's, briefly, the shim holding the entire Cube together while it's rebalancing, and it has to wait to do so until after the Borg have shifted all their proverbial weight to it (if they fire before the component is overloaded, it won't be any more effective than firing at any other part, and the Borg will just reroute to a different section, and will certainly figure out that their internal communications have been compromised and adapt).

Now, many here who favor the retcon will hand waive this away that it doesn't mean what I said and that they needed Picard because of whatever. That's fine, but a retcon is still a retcon.

That's literally what the Borg said, though. They could have any drone speak if they wanted a single identifiable figurehead and not just the faceless Borg chorus to give them a comprehensible individual face. Any Starfleeter would do if, for some reason, normal drones weren't capable of speech and they needed to make a special one from scratch. The Borg hail the Enterprise and specifically order Picard to turn himself over. The Borg explain in the dialog you quoted that Picard, specifically, has been chosen to be their ambassador. The "archaic," "authority-driven culture" needs a figurehead that already has respect and authority with the Federation, not just any arbitrary pseudo-individual. Locutus is just another drone, the only thing that makes it special is what it used to be, and that the Borg can use that background as a psychological weapon, which is not something they'd get from having the Queen or some other drone be their speaker.

 

[carcinoGeneticist]

She sold them on that idea—that’s my guess.

Q-Who took place before her arrival…in my head canon…she, the Anna Sorokin of Star Trek:

Anna Delvey - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I would not be surprised if she heard about Crushers nanites, and used them to get into the hive.

There were no tubules prior to First Contact. She pointed out how quickly she got in—and came to a mutual understanding.

Love this headcanon!

 

[kkt]

Yes, the idea of a Borg Queen doesn't work for me. They were introduced as a single consciousness with no central Queen, the loss of whom would destroy the entire collective. Also the metaphore with ants or bees doesn't work. Their queens are not decision-makers. The colony responds to what it finds, the queen is just the hive's reproductive machine for producing more ants or bees.

And, yeah, sexualizing the queen of a society that doesn't have sexual reproduction is just messed up.

 

[C.E. Evans]

There's nothing scarier than the unknown, and that's what the Borg were at first. But as we started to learn more about them, the less scary they became to the point where people now find them now boring and even annoying, IMO.

I don't have a problem at all with the idea of a Borg queen, it's really with the Borg in general. They were too powerful right out of the gate, and further encounters with them could never have them fulfill their full potential because it would be the end of the Human adventure in Star Trek if they did. If it was up to me, the Borg would have been a one-off thing in "Q Who?" never to be seen again, but would have remained a warning that there are terrors in the Galaxy that are best avoided...

 

[Lord Exor]

Yes, the idea of a Borg Queen doesn't work for me. They were introduced as a single consciousness with no central Queen, the loss of whom would destroy the entire collective. Also the metaphore with ants or bees doesn't work. Their queens are not decision-makers. The colony responds to what it finds, the queen is just the hive's reproductive machine for producing more ants or bees.

And, yeah, sexualizing the queen of a society that doesn't have sexual reproduction is just messed up.

The trope of a hive mind having a queen or centralized controlling force has existed long before First Contact. It's not meant to be completely analogous to insect hierarchy, it's just convenient shorthand to describe how this concept would work.

 

[at Quark's]

There's nothing scarier than the unknown, and that's what the Borg were at first. But as we started to learn more about them, the less scary they became to the point where people now find them now boring and even annoying, IMO.

I don't have a problem at all with the idea of a Borg queen, it's really with the Borg in general. They were too powerful right out of the gate, and further encounters with them could never have them fulfill their full potential because it would be the end of the Human adventure in Star Trek if they did. If it was up to me, the Borg would have been a one-off thing in "Q Who?" never to be seen again, but would have remained a warning that there are terrors in the Galaxy that are best avoided...

They were certainly too powerful to be used as a frequent adversary (without seriously nerfing them, which they did). In a way, it already started in Best of Both Worlds with that unguarded backdoor into the 'sleep' command, much as I like the episode.

 

[JesterFace]

Even if Alice Krige was great when the Queen was introduced I'm not a fan of the Queen concept.
Before the Queen the Borg was a faceless enemy, no chatting with our heroes, no negotiations. The Borg says what it want's and that's it.
And then the Queen comes and gives the Borg a personality and they can have a discussion, you will be assimilated, please don't assimilate us and so on. The Queen defanged the Borg.

They were certainly too powerful to be used as a frequent adversary (without seriously nerfing them, which they did). In a way, it already started in Best of Both Worlds with that unguarded backdoor into the 'sleep' command, much as I like the episode.

STNG used the Borg the correct amount.
How many times can you beat an unbeatable enemy before that enemy becomes not that scary.
Q Who, The Best of Both Worlds 1 & 2 and I Borg, that's the correct amout of Borg for me.

 

[publiusr]

Having the Queen be an outsider also allows good storytelling opportunities.

 

[Lord Exor]

Even if Alice Krige was great when the Queen was introduced I'm not a fan of the Queen concept.
Before the Queen the Borg was a faceless enemy, no chatting with our heroes, no negotiations. The Borg says what it want's and that's it.
And then the Queen comes and gives the Borg a personality and they can have a discussion, you will be assimilated, please don't assimilate us and so on. The Queen defanged the Borg.



STNG used the Borg the correct amount.
How many times can you beat an unbeatable enemy before that enemy becomes not that scary.
Q Who, The Best of Both Worlds 1 & 2 and I Borg, that's the correct amout of Borg for me.

Did she? The Borg were beaten by a silly backdoor vulnerability in BOBW, and were allegedly susceptible to total annihilation by geometric parodox, which is beyond ridiculous. The ethics of the episode are fantastic, but come on.

Yeah, the Queen could talk to the protagonists, but the Borg were having conversations through Locutus and Hugh long before that. The Borg were still unquestionably hostile, and with the Queen around, they were now an evil organization, not a case of blue-and-orange morality anymore. She knows what she's doing is considered harmful, and not only doesn't care, but she even enjoys it. Drones are now brainwashed slaves, so none of them are willing participants.

 

[JesterFace]

Did she? The Borg were beaten by a silly backdoor vulnerability in BOBW, and were allegedly susceptible to total annihilation by geometric parodox, which is beyond ridiculous. The ethics of the episode are fantastic, but come on.

Yeah, the Queen could talk to the protagonists, but the Borg were having conversations through Locutus and Hugh long before that. The Borg were still unquestionably hostile, and with the Queen around, they were now an evil organization, not a case of blue-and-orange morality anymore. She knows what she's doing is considered harmful, and not only doesn't care, but she even enjoys it. Drones are now brainwashed slaves, so none of them are willing participants.

If the geometric paradox was ridiculous I think it was even more silly when the Queen was destroyed by Data in First Contact all the drones started to get destroyed too.
Destroy the big baddie and all the enemies are done at the same time.

In the case on Locutus (introduction for the collective) and Hugh (separated from the collective) it made sense they could communicate with our heroes, up to that point everywhere else the entire collective talked with one voice and that's it.

@kkt , you found my post funny haha or just stupid?

 

[Lord Exor]

If the geometric paradox was ridiculous I think it was even more silly when the Queen was destroyed by Data in First Contact all the drones started to get destroyed too.
Destroy the big baddie and all the enemies are done at the same time.

In the case on Locutus (introduction for the collective) and Hugh (separated from the collective) it made sense they could communicate with our heroes, up to that point everywhere else the entire collective talked with one voice and that's it.

@kkt , you found my post funny haha or just stupid?

The Collective spoke without individual representation in one episode. One. Episode. It happened a few times after that, but by that point, the Queen had already been introduced and we already knew how the Borg actually worked.

And yeah, I'll take a big dramatic confrontation over a "topological anomaly" administered from afar.

I think it's a testament to just how boring a concept the Borg were previously that the only thing people seem to discuss is how unbeatable they were or how easily they were defeated. They were just a generic doomsday villain with nothing else going on. And yeah, the Borg were still a two-dimensional evil empire after First Contact, but at least there were more layers for writers to work with.

 

[Riley]

Watched First Contact fairly recently, and I have a few questions, mainly about the Borg Queen. I'm aware the general consensus among the fandom is that the Trek movies are dogsh*t but I can't help but wonder some of the decisions made her. Mainly, the concept of the Borg as a whole is changed entirely by the existence of the Queen. Before the Queen, the Borg were a unique entity, something that doesn't form naturally on Earth. Something completely alien. One being with a unified consciousness. I'm getting mildly carried away, but you get the point. Add in the Borg Queen, and now they're just... bees. Or ants, I guess. My point being that the Borg Queen takes the Borg from a hive mind system that's completely unnatural to just a colony, something that we've all seen mirrored on Earth. Maybe I'm being nitpicky, but I think the Borg would have been much better off without addition of the Queen.
When you think about it, same sort of goes for Locutus. Not the bees thing, but the fact that any Borg being an individual, such as Locutus, sort of makes the Borg into one big contradiction of themselves. I know Locutus is supposed to be the collection of the Borg's voices to connect with other races or whatever, but the Borg already have a collection of their voices, that being, THEIR VOICES! I don't have as big a problem with Locutus as I do with the Borg Queen, though.
Oh, well. I'll stop yapping now.

You've illustrated some of my big issues with First Contact. It's a decent sci fi movie but an awful TNG movie. Most of the characters are out of character to some degree or another, the time-travel plot is nonsensical, and worst of all, Patrick Stewart's attempt at making Picard an action hero were pathetic. The idea of the Borg Queen is also ridiculous and should never have made it past the pitch stage. The Borg were left in a state of chaos after "The Descent." Factions of Borg warring with each other with the Federation and the Enterprise caught in the middle would have been a far better story. Don't even get me started on how poorly Zephram Cochrane was handled...