Did the Borg Queen Neuter the Concept of the Borg?

[Shawnster]

The Queen always made sense to me. When you throw in things like "hive mind" and the nature of the Borg in general it seems natural that they would have a Queen.

In hive mind insects the queen does not rule or direct the hive. The Queen's role is producing more insects.

The Borg were already having conversations with the Federation through Locutus and Hugh, so the introduction of the Queen certainly didn't add anything unique on that front.

Right. She didn't add anything. She filled the same role we already saw with Locutus. Therefore, from an In-universe point of view if they already had the Queen, they did not need Locutus. This makes the whole point of Best of Both Worlds pointless.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

In hive mind insects the queen does not rule or direct the hive. The Queen's role is producing more insects.

But "The Borg" aren't insects, they're EnSlaved Sentient People with all the trappings of People.

That means 'The Borg Queen' is basically a 'EVIL QUEEN' for all intense purposes.

She's 'EnSlaving Sentient Beings against their Free-Will', then 'Commanding them to Assimilate others' instead of 'Breeding & Birthing New Drones & raising them herself'.

 

[fireproof78]

So more a Dracula type villain.

 

[Nerys Myk]

But "The Borg" aren't insects, they're EnSlaved Sentient People with all the trappings of People.

That means 'The Borg Queen' is basically a 'EVIL QUEEN' for all intense purposes.

She's 'EnSlaving Sentient Beings against their Free-Will', then 'Commanding them to Assimilate others' instead of 'Breeding & Birthing New Drones & raising them herself'.

They are reduced to an insect like existence upon assimilation.

Assimilation is breeding and birthing new drones.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

So more a Dracula type villain.

A Combination of Cybernetic Vampire/Zombie villain, but yes!

But given all the numerous species that "The Borg" assimilated, you would think they would've found one that had "Artificial Womb" technology like what was created in the Gundam Seed Universe.
Where you can grow your own Drones and program them however you like.
At that point, you avoid conflict with other Species and don't even need to assimilate them.

The Borg assimilating others is what creates a vast array of enemies of "The Borg".
It's why so many other species are plotting their down-fall across our Milky Way Galaxy & even across Dimensions.
Everybody they encounter, automatically becomes their Enemy because their "Modus Operandi" automatically creates enemies.

Spoiler: ST:PIC S2 Spoilers

It's a bad Paradigm to live by, but "The Borg Queen" finally learned something from Agnes Jurati.
Change the Paradigm, don't assimilate people against their will.
Offer those who want to join a chance to join the Collective for it's benefits.
Allow Individualism, allow Growth, allow unique-ness.
That's why I like Borg Queen Jurati, I wish to see more of her Borg Group that has "Free Will".

Her group of Borg seem quite different, just look at their vessel at the end of ST:PIC S2, it's not a basic Geometric Shape.
It's actually a quite complex Non-Standard design for a Borg Vessel.
The Engineering & Creativity needed to make a vessel of that configuration with that kind of capabilities is something I can't see the Old Borg doing.

The Old Borg lack imagination, creativity. They use Basic 3D Geometric Shapes w/o putting that much thought into their vessel design.
Relying on Raw Power, Size, & Technological Advantage.

---

They are reduced to an insect like existence upon assimilation.

That part is very true.

Assimilation is breeding and birthing new drones.

No, the Assimilation Process is more like a form of (Artificially Induced Cancer & Mind Control)

That's different than the technical definition of Breeding & Birthing.

It's a different way to accomplish the same end goal.

 

[Lord Exor]

In hive mind insects the queen does not rule or direct the hive. The Queen's role is producing more insects.




Right. She didn't add anything. She filled the same role we already saw with Locutus. Therefore, from an In-universe point of view if they already had the Queen, they did not need Locutus. This makes the whole point of Best of Both Worlds pointless.

Well no, because we learned in First Contact that the real reason for Locutus was to create a counterpart for the Queen. He resisted, so she turned him into a normal drone. The Queen is lonely in that she craves validation and acknowledgement; but she's also a control-obsessed sociopath, so she has no intention of interfacing with anyone as equals. Even if Locutus worked out, he still wouldn't have shared her power. We see her idea of an "equal" in Data, which is someone she can bark orders to without having to be a brainwashed automaton. It makes her warm and fuzzy when someone does her bidding because they want to, hence her disappointment in Locutus.

 

[Nerys Myk]

No, the Assimilation Process is more like a form of (Artificially Induced Cancer & Mind Control)

That's different than the technical definition of Breeding & Birthing.

It's a different way to accomplish the same end goal.

It's a way of creating new drones. So it's "birthing" new drones.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

It's a way of creating new drones. So it's "birthing" new drones.

I wouldn't use the term "birthing".
noun

1. an act or instance of giving birth, especially by natural childbirth.

That word has it's own very specific meaning.


It's closer to when a Vampire creates other Vampires, more like "Siring"
or
When Zombies create more Zombies, more like "Infecting".

Same end goal, completely different methodology.


Or using Borg specific terminology, they "Assimilate" a target person.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I wouldn't use the term "birthing".
noun

1. an act or instance of giving birth, especially by natural childbirth.

That word has it's own very specific meaning.


It's closer to when a Vampire creates other Vampires, more like "Siring"
or
When Zombies create more Zombies, more like "Infecting".

Same end goal, completely different methodology.


Or using Borg specific terminology, they "Assimilate" a target person.

Metaphor. Look that one up.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Metaphor. Look that one up.

No need, when we can be more accurate with our wording.

 

[Nerys Myk]

No need, when we can be more accurate with our wording.

No. Language is fun and evolving. Figures of speech are one of the best things about it.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

No. Language is fun and evolving. Figures of speech are one of the best things about it.

I prefer a more accurate set of vocabulary if possible.

A more direct / literal sense.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I prefer a more accurate set of vocabulary if possible.

A more direct / literal sense.

Boring.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Boring.

To each his own.

 

[trekfan_1]

The answer is Yes. I have had that opinion for years. However I conceed that the Borg Queen probably worked for Star Trek First Contact and introduced some spice and interplay that was interesting enough and probably satisfied the mainstream movie audiences.

I just wish they dropped the Queen after that. Make it out as a failed experiment by the borg or something along those lines. Faceless villian made them different and menacing. I mainly blame Star Trek Voyager for wussafying the Borg with the super nano probes and whatnot. They went all Iron Eagle with one ship defeating their entire fleet. Seven of the Nine was one of he few things they did right by use of the Borg on that show . Otherwise, they did a great job of making a once feared race to a ho hum enemy of the week group of antagonists.

 

[Lord Exor]

The answer is Yes. I have had that opinion for years. However I canceed that the Borg Queen probably worked for Star Trek First Contact and introduced some spice and interplay that was interesting enough and probably satisfied the mainstream movie audiences.

I just wish they dropped the Queen after that. Make it out as a failed experiment by the borg or something along those lines. Faceless villian made them different and menacing. I mainly blame Star Trek Voyager for wussafying the Borg with the super nano probes and whatnot. They went all Iron Eagle with one ship defeating their entire fleet. Seven of the Nine was one of he few things they did right by use of the Borg on that show . Otherwise, they did a great job of making a once feared race to a ho hum enemy of the week group of antagonists.

Did it though? Seems pretty boring to me. If the villain has no personality, no intellect beyond a one-note instinct, and no potential for drama, then how interesting or menacing can it possibly be? A force that's characterized purely by how indomitable it is and little else is just really trite; like the type of basic and bare bones antagonist a child comes up with on the playground. That's fodder for a one-and-done episode, not for a recurring enemy. Again, either you use them once and never again, or they have to evolve beyond that.

 

[trekfan_1]

Did it though? Seems pretty boring to me. If the villain has no personality, no intellect beyond a one-note instinct, and no potential for drama, then how interesting or menacing can it possibly be? A force that's characterized purely by how indomitable it is and little else is just really trite; like the type of basic and bare bones antagonist a child comes up with on the playground. That's fodder for a one-and-done episode, not for a recurring enemy. Again, either you use them once and never again, or they have to evolve beyond that.

I have time for that argument. I still think though, with
the right creative vision , they could of continued with the original Borg formula . Perhaps via intoducing adjacent drama around them. They could of added more layers of mystery to their unique mythology and found new ways to create drama. And then picked their spots on when to use them. But I get the need to revert to treating them like a conventional race for tried and true conventional drama purposes. They eventually did the same thing with species 8472. I loved how they were so different from standard forehead aliens. So I really hated when they did "In the Flesh " and made them inhabit human hosts to make them more conventional to interplay with. ( likely also to save money on CGI)

With the Borg, I still think there were more stories out there using their different, chilling original profile. Queen or otherwise, I still think Voyager over did them, and not particularly well after "Scorpion" IMO.

 

[Shawnster]

I have time for that argument. I still think though, with the right creative vision , they could of continued with the original Borg formula . Perhaps via intoducing adjacent drama around them. They could of added more layers of mystery to their unique mythology and found new ways to create drama

The Borg were like the crystalline entity. A force of nature. Plague of locusts.

Until Locutus showed up, the Borg in Best of Both Worlds seem to fit exactly with their description from Q Who. Look how Guinian describes them. The Borg scattered her people and destroyed their cities. When they attack it's a full on assault or wave or mass. They cannot be reasoned with.

Now compare that to the beginning of BoBW and the description of the destruction along the Neutral Zone in the TNG episode of that name. Entire colonies wiped out. Scooped out by what seemed to be an unstoppable force of nature.

 

[Lord Exor]

The Crystalline Entity was a plot device that leaned on Lore to provide any meaningful impact on the characters. In its second appearance, it was used as an ethical conundrum, where the story was primarily about Marr and her need for revenge. By itself, it wasn't interesting, and certainly could never carry a story on its own.

The Borg, outside of their power and premise, were pretty much the same deal. Q was the real draw of that episode, not the Borg. BOBW needed Picard to sell the drama. After that, they were spent. That's why we got "I, Borg" and "Descent."

These things sound cool on paper, but in execution, they're just not that interesting on their own. Giving the Borg more depth and learning about their civilization may make them more "conventional," but that's how you get a character like Seven of Nine. That's how you make them actually worth investing in.

You could accomplish that without the Queen, but let's be honest; the Queen is just the scapegoat here. If generic doomsday monster is what people are attracted to, they would be equally upset with any attempt at fleshing them out.

 

[fireproof78]

I think the Queen takes the Borg to a myopic level.