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Maybe my memory of First Contact is faulty but Starfleet wasn't doing well in that battle against the Borg. Despite years of Borg Prep they were getting their asses kicked. It was only because Picard showed up--against orders--with Special Insight, that the fight was won.
We don't know how many ships the fleet started out with. They gathered in the Typhon sector and the battle ENDED in Earth orbit, never started there. This has been discussed in several topics through out the years, but a lot of fans seem to agree that the fleet engaged the Borg in the Typhon sector, where the battle began. It's very clear during the audio transmission that they are getting their asses handed to them within seconds, mostly likely several ships destroyed or disabled.
Most likely, the Cube never stopped and just ploughed through the fleet and kept going, with the fleet going in pursuit and the battle just kept on going. The Enterprise could never make that journey in a matter of minutes, so a prolonged fight makes sense.
For all we know, a 100 ships gathered in the Typhon sector and only the 20 or so ships seen in First Contact made it, making the loss of the battle greater than Wolf 359.
Mind you, I said 'for all we know'. This is all speculation. Maybe only 15 ships gathered in the Typhon sector and ships joined and left the fleet while it was on the way.
We don't know how many ships the fleet started out with. They gathered in the Typhon sector and the battle ENDED in Earth orbit, never started there. This has been discussed in several topics through out the years, but a lot of fans seem to agree that the fleet engaged the Borg in the Typhon sector, where the battle began. It's very clear during the audio transmission that they are getting their asses handed to them within seconds, mostly likely several ships destroyed or disabled.
Most likely, the Cube never stopped and just ploughed through the fleet and kept going, with the fleet going in pursuit and the battle just kept on going. The Enterprise could never make that journey in a matter of minutes, so a prolonged fight makes sense.
For all we know, a 100 ships gathered in the Typhon sector and only the 20 or so ships seen in First Contact made it, making the loss of the battle greater than Wolf 359.
Mind you, I said 'for all we know'. This is all speculation. Maybe only 15 ships gathered in the Typhon sector and ships joined and left the fleet while it was on the way.
Do we have conclusive evidence that the fight started in the Typhon sector?
Also, there is no data on how many ships there were.
If anything, I doubt the losses would have been greater than Wolf 359 because SF likely attacked the cube in waves and most of the fleet was upgraded to better combat the Borg.
One wave attacks, then retreats and second wave takes over while the first one conducts damage control.
Some ships would be lost yes, but remember that the number of ships we see on screen is hardly representative of the actual fleet numbers present in a large battle (for instance, DS9 only showed a few dozen ships at any given time, and yet, there were at least 600 Federation vessels in Sacrifice of the Angels).
We don't know how many ships the fleet started out with. They gathered in the Typhon sector and the battle ENDED in Earth orbit, never started there. This has been discussed in several topics through out the years, but a lot of fans seem to agree that the fleet engaged the Borg in the Typhon sector, where the battle began. It's very clear during the audio transmission that they are getting their asses handed to them within seconds, mostly likely several ships destroyed or disabled.
Most likely, the Cube never stopped and just ploughed through the fleet and kept going, with the fleet going in pursuit and the battle just kept on going. The Enterprise could never make that journey in a matter of minutes, so a prolonged fight makes sense.
For all we know, a 100 ships gathered in the Typhon sector and only the 20 or so ships seen in First Contact made it, making the loss of the battle greater than Wolf 359.
Mind you, I said 'for all we know'. This is all speculation. Maybe only 15 ships gathered in the Typhon sector and ships joined and left the fleet while it was on the way.
That's still a horrible survival rate however you slice it - and we know more than 1 ship survived the battle of sector 001 (the Defiant damaged as it was, the ENT-E, and multiple other ships - that's just the ones we saw visually, and we know that's probably not the full compliment of ships).
We saw an Akira being caught in the Cube's explosion yes, but multiple other vessels cleared out and were fine.
Sure, its better than what happened at Wolf 359, but still, I'd argue that SF had to learn a few things from the initial encounter and radically improve their survival rate seeing what kind of heavy damage the Cube took and the fact the fleet held out until the ENT-E came to the scene.
That's still a horrible survival rate however you slice it - and we know more than 1 ship survived the battle of sector 001 (the Defiant damaged as it was, the ENT-E, and multiple other ships - that's just the ones we saw visually, and we know that's probably not the full compliment of ships).
We saw an Akira being caught in the Cube's explosion yes, but multiple other vessels cleared out and were fine.
Sure, its better than what happened at Wolf 359, but still, I'd argue that SF had to learn a few things from the initial encounter and radically improve their survival rate seeing what kind of heavy damage the Cube took and the fact the fleet held out until the ENT-E came to the scene.
StarFleet needs to learn to not fight at "Close Range".
If you're close enough to fear the awesome size of the cube, you're "TOO DAMN CLOSE".
"Close Range" StarShip combat is the Borg Cube's specialty.
You have ~1 light second of combat range, everybody fan out and surround the Borg Cube and have a running battle.
Borg Vessels aren't known to be agile / nimble.
You're fighting what is effectively "Hulk Like" monsters.
Just Pelt them until it dies, everybody be on a completely random different auto-random cycling weapon frequency at any given time and harass from long range in a Spherical pattern around the target and Alpha Strike them to hell.
StarFleet needs to learn to not fight at "Close Range".
If you're close enough to fear the awesome size of the cube, you're "TOO DAMN CLOSE".
"Close Range" StarShip combat is the Borg Cube's specialty.
You have ~1 light second of combat range, everybody fan out and surround the Borg Cube and have a running battle.
Borg Vessels aren't known to be agile / nimble.
You're fighting what is effectively "Hulk Like" monsters.
Just Pelt them until it dies, everybody be on a completely random different auto-random cycling weapon frequency at any given time and harass from long range in a Spherical pattern around the target and Alpha Strike them to hell.
For a single Borg cube (or even a few), wave tactics at long ranges would likely work too.
Remember that if SF has 1 light second phaser range, the Borg will likely have the same range for their directed energy weapons (possibly more?).
The only thing is, tractor beams don't seem to (generally) have the ability to catch objects at 1 light second range, so that would likely be an immediate relief because if they can't capture you in a tractor beam, then it makes you more difficult to hit with torpedoes (and possibly directed energy weapons if you manage to interfere with their scans).
I agree that Trek needs to bring back long range fights as they definitely make more sense for in-universe technology and against more powerful foes like the Borg.
But as we covered in another thread, its likely we won't really see long range fights as they have little to no appeal from the VFX POV... then again, it COULD be made exciting if they tried.
They don't have to simulate exact ranges, just make the ships sufficiently distant from each other visually and cover the rest in dialogue.
Even if ranges are somewhat closer for visual purposes, the dialogue can make them 'larger' for narrative purposes.
I'd be ok with a compromise where two ships are somewhat visible (SNW did this if I'm not mistaken in the fight with the Romulan Warbird)... while the ranges weren't extreme, the vessels were quite far away from each other visually that the dialogue could have stated 'thousands' or 'tens of thousands of km'.
True, but StarFleet vessels are nimble and have amazing sensors to detect incoming weapons fire, so at 1 second, the ship can be programmed to auto dodge incoming weapons fire while throwing weapons fire back.
Given how large of a target Silhouette that a Borg Cube is from any angle, it's "Hard to Miss".
The only thing is, tractor beams don't seem to (generally) have the ability to catch objects at 1 light second range, so that would likely be an immediate relief because if they can't capture you in a tractor beam, then it makes you more difficult to hit with torpedoes (and possibly directed energy weapons if you manage to interfere with their scans).
I agree that Trek needs to bring back long range fights as they definitely make more sense for in-universe technology and against more powerful foes like the Borg.
Fighting "The Borg" takes smarts and planning at a next level. Just throwing StarShips at the problem is "Zapp Brannigan" levels of stupidily wasteful level of tactical thinking.
But as we covered in another thread, its likely we won't really see long range fights as they have little to no appeal from the VFX POV... then again, it COULD be made exciting if they tried.
They don't have to simulate exact ranges, just make the ships sufficiently distant from each other visually and cover the rest in dialogue.
No need, have them firing into the Horizon, then show the close up shot of weapons impacting the target with a immediate jump cut in real time portraying the real time nature of combat.
It only takes ~1 second for Beam Weapons to travel ~1 light year.
I'd be ok with a compromise where two ships are somewhat visible (SNW did this if I'm not mistaken in the fight with the Romulan Warbird)... while the ranges weren't extreme, the vessels were quite far away from each other visually that the dialogue could have stated 'thousands' or 'tens of thousands of km'.
I'd rather them do a real "Video Game Simulation" style view and just do a quick jump from one vessel, then do a quick fly-by pan to the other vessel w/o having either parties in the same shot.
Also, StarFleet needs CIWS style weaponry on all StarShips/Shuttles/Fighters.
There is NO logical reason why Torpedoes / Missiles / Energy Projectiles that are slower than "Speed of Light" should ever contact shields, they should be shot down mid flight.
Modern Naval Doctrine has battles as far away as possible.
That's why Fighter Aircraft exist, to make sure the battle is as FAR AWAY from the mother ships as possible.
Same with Drones / Bits.
They should be flying around the StarShip / Shuttle / Fighter acting as Defensive Screens or Interceptor Bits to take down incoming weapons/projectile fire.
The whole point of "Combined Arms Tactics" is for Fighters/Drones/Bits to go in close and harass the target, immobilize them from going to FTL if you can.
Then bombard them from the longest range possible until nothing is left to fight back or regenerate.
So in StarFleet's case, Drone Fighter Craft & Bits + a few manned fighters can go in and play the offensive front line screening role and harass the vessel.
With the Unmanned AI based systems functioning at close range with manned at slightly further giving commands and harassing them while relaying info to the mother ships.
All larger vessels stay at maximum weapons range and harass until nothing is left.
Then slowly prosecute each battle until you wittle down your enemy.
Also, StarFleet needs CIWS style weaponry on all StarShips/Shuttles/Fighters.
There is NO logical reason why Torpedoes / Missiles / Energy Projectiles that are slower than "Speed of Light" should ever contact shields, they should be shot down mid flight.
Hm... well, torpedoes, missiles and energy projectiles typically fall into the same category although there are differences between all of them.
We know that NX-01 used spatial torpedoes (nukes it seems), but they were too slow, subject to being shot down and ineffective against shields (likely too low yield and not the right kind of type of energy to affect them).
Photon torpedoes and energy based projectiles are much more similar in the sense that both present themselves visually as 'balls of light/energy' (plasma/radiation/etc.), so, there are similar mechanisms in place that facilitate this visual similarity, and their effects on shields along with their ability to travel at Warp.
Photons also have a massive range - 3.5 million km - but I think they travel at 75% of light speed (225,806.451 km/s).
Even at those speeds, it would take them 15.5 seconds to cross 3.5 million km, so, evasion is possible, but only if the target is moving at faster velocities than torpedoes do and if they are well outside 1 Light second radius of directed energy weapons.
I suspect that Photon torpedoes in part due to their speed and other hw onboard can obscure sensors to prevent them from being destroyed by point defence systems - in fact, the only situations we saw them destroyed by an enemy ship was in games which were not canon... VOY however was able to destroy a photon torpedo which produced a photon blast and disabled 2 enemy ships (though that was an intentional strategy on the ECH par, so its possible that whatever mechanism prevents torpedoes from being shot down before reaching their target was a one direction thing for VOY and not something the enemy could exploit).
Generally, if battles are occurring at/within 1 light second range, then torpedoes would seldom miss their targets as they would cross those distances nearly instantly (too quickly for organic response times usually which usually control defences - but as I said, they likely employ some kind of tech which prevents point defence mechanisms from working usually).
Modern Naval Doctrine has battles as far away as possible.
That's why Fighter Aircraft exist, to make sure the battle is as FAR AWAY from the mother ships as possible.
Same with Drones / Bits.
They should be flying around the StarShip / Shuttle / Fighter acting as Defensive Screens or Interceptor Bits to take down incoming weapons/projectile fire.
The whole point of "Combined Arms Tactics" is for Fighters/Drones/Bits to go in close and harass the target, immobilize them from going to FTL if you can.
Then bombard them from the longest range possible until nothing is left to fight back or regenerate.
So in StarFleet's case, Drone Fighter Craft & Bits + a few manned fighters can go in and play the offensive front line screening role and harass the vessel.
With the Unmanned AI based systems functioning at close range with manned at slightly further giving commands and harassing them while relaying info to the mother ships.
All larger vessels stay at maximum weapons range and harass until nothing is left.
Then slowly prosecute each battle until you wittle down your enemy.
Control employed this strategy in its fight against Disco and ENT if I'm not mistaken, and indeed, we've seen the manned shuttles and craft forming a protective barrier around Burnham after she launched in the Red Angel Suit.
Still, the crew of the ENT likely didn't man all those small craft... a lot of them would have been automated.
Hm... well, torpedoes, missiles and energy projectiles typically fall into the same category although there are differences between all of them.
We know that NX-01 used spatial torpedoes (nukes it seems), but they were too slow, subject to being shot down and ineffective against shields (likely too low yield and not the right kind of type of energy to affect them).
Photon torpedoes and energy based projectiles are much more similar in the sense that both present themselves visually as 'balls of light/energy' (plasma/radiation/etc.), so, there are similar mechanisms in place that facilitate this visual similarity, and their effects on shields along with their ability to travel at Warp.
Photons also have a massive range - 3.5 million km - but I think they travel at 75% of light speed (225,806.451 km/s).
Even at those speeds, it would take them 15.5 seconds to cross 3.5 million km, so, evasion is possible, but only if the target is moving at faster velocities than torpedoes do and if they are well outside 1 Light second radius of directed energy weapons.
It also had a 200 km Blast Radius in Atmosphere.
For reference, a standard StarFleet Photon Torpedo has 1.5 Kg of M & A-M = 64.3 Mt payload.
Tsar Bomba had a 50 Mt Warhead & a blast radius of 35 km.
It also has 80 ly Maximum travel distance at Warp Speeds that can keep up with the USS Voyager, it has AI + Bio-Neural Circuitry, Anti EMP defenses, paratrinic shielding
I suspect that Photon torpedoes in part due to their speed and other hw onboard can obscure sensors to prevent them from being destroyed by point defence systems - in fact, the only situations we saw them destroyed by an enemy ship was in games which were not canon... VOY however was able to destroy a photon torpedo which produced a photon blast and disabled 2 enemy ships (though that was an intentional strategy on the ECH par, so its possible that whatever mechanism prevents torpedoes from being shot down before reaching their target was a one direction thing for VOY and not something the enemy could exploit).
Most modern Projectiles don't scan for things coming from behind them, they only check the frontal Hemisphere. So anything that comes from behind can easily destroy it, but it has to catch up to it, that's VERY hard to do since your launching platform is most likely behind you.
As far as ECM jamming, so far StarFleet Photon Torpedoes don't seem to be all that advanced compared to what other aliens come up with like the Druoda.
And StarFleet Torpedoes are WAY larger (You can literally fit a person in it), and less efficient space wise than the Druoda's, which requires 2x random lower deckers to carry it.
I do love the new Multi-Warhead Torpedoes that the Texas Class had, those were really cool, where one Torpedo splits into 6x Warheads to hit a target.
Generally, if battles are occurring at/within 1 light second range, then torpedoes would seldom miss their targets as they would cross those distances nearly instantly (too quickly for organic response times usually which usually control defences - but as I said, they likely employ some kind of tech which prevents point defence mechanisms from working usually).
Control employed this strategy in its fight against Disco and ENT if I'm not mistaken, and indeed, we've seen the manned shuttles and craft forming a protective barrier around Burnham after she launched in the Red Angel Suit.
Still, the crew of the ENT likely didn't man all those small craft... a lot of them would have been automated.
But those drones were WAY too close to the parent vessel, I'm talking LONG range control of the vessel like what the Romulans did, where they were several light years away.
You could be outside the Star System, inside another Star System and controlling your remote weapons.
That's the range I'm talking about for controlling weapons tech. Especially with Hyper-Subspace communications allowing real time communications across the Quadrants.
You should be able to facilitate low latency remote control weapons and vessels with a mix of manned vessels and unmanned vessels that could have remote operation via crewman aboard the mothership that helps control the AI powered Drone and give it "High Level" commands and help the Drones fly more like people than like AI would.
I love this, but holy crap can they turn up the lights?!? I can't see anything! Something happening "in space" doesn't necessarily mean that there still isn't a star nearby. And especially here, where they're supposed to be between Mars and Jupiter, the sun is still *plenty* bright!
I love this, but holy crap can they turn up the lights?!? I can't see anything! Something happening "in space" doesn't necessarily mean that there still isn't a star nearby. And especially here, where they're supposed to be between Mars and Jupiter, the sun is still *plenty* bright!
Well, I'd say that's probably one thing they (accidentally) got right, if the ships were lit correctly. Anything on camera that's lit up by the sun would completely wash out any background stars, as proven by various pictures taken by the Apollo missions. I said accidentally, because the times I *did* see stars in the shot, it was almost always showing the Orion constellation, despite the shots supposed to have been taken from several different directions.
Well, I'd say that's probably one thing they (accidentally) got right, if the ships were lit correctly. Anything on camera that's lit up by the sun would completely wash out any background stars, as proven by various pictures taken by the Apollo missions. I said accidentally, because the times I *did* see stars in the shot, it was almost always showing the Orion constellation, despite the shots supposed to have been taken from several different directions
It does. The sun is still *plenty* bright even all the way to Jupiter.
EDIT: To prove this, take a look at some of the Galileo probe pics of the Jupiter system, or even of the Cassini pics of Saturn. For most pics of a planet or moon, you can't see any stars unless the brightness is turned way up, or the planet is blocking the sun.
