In the story sense? Yeah.
Is it just me, or is Star Trek going the wrong way?
- Thread starter LunaticBurnout
- Start date
TVH, too.
II, III and IV form an unofficial trilogy. And it's an amazing one.
II, III and IV form an unofficial trilogy. And it's an amazing one.
While I agree that the Genesis trilogy is more or less a thing, TVH really isn't a sequel as it could exist completely independently of the others in both plot and theme. (If one were to, say, chop off the first ten minutes or so.) But SFS can't exist - as is - without Khannie -- again in terms of both plot and theme.
**I might add that this is made evident in how popular and accessible 'the one with whales' was to general audiences. Whereas, view in a bubble, SFS doesn't work very well as a film and can get a bit convoluted.
**I might add that this is made evident in how popular and accessible 'the one with whales' was to general audiences. Whereas, view in a bubble, SFS doesn't work very well as a film and can get a bit convoluted.
Notwithstanding your point, which I think is basically correct, the idea of cutting out the conversation between Spock and Amanda makes me a sad panda, indeed. The whole testing scene is super cool, and I was almost literally floored when Jane Wyatt was revealed. It's really the correct choice, I think, to make her the voice of Spock's conscience, so to speak. You'd also probably need to cut out the conversation with Spock's father at the other end of the film, when Spock gets it and says he feels fine. Both conversations with the parents relate to the trilogy and not to the romp about saving the whales.
Oh, and just what it is that Kirk's been charged with and why they're in a Klingon BoP to begin with would go unanswered.
Let's put it this way, with only minor tweaks, TVH could be made a standalone film. TSFS, never.
I find anyone who says Lower Decks was made by someone who didn't love Star Trek to be from a different universe. One so alien and bizarre that I cannot understand their perspective.
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At that point I can't take them seriously in any way, shape or form.
I would agree with most of these outside of VOY being a sequel to TNG. They may have aped the "episode of the week" and "being on a starship" elements of TNG, it reset buttons and lack of character development, but it is definitely a spinoff. No characters carry over and very few story elements carry over except for the Marquis and much later the existence of the Borg. It doesn't really perform as a sequel to TNG any more than DS9 does.
LDS is another one I am debating in my head. If it is a sequel to anything, it should maybe be properly considered a sequel to the whole Berman era - and that probably makes it more of a spinoff than sequel. Sure Riker shows up a couple of times, but so do Tom Paris and a half dozen other characters/settings/aliens.
Prodigy is too early to tell about yet, but right now it looks like a Voyager spin-off, despite HoloJaneway.
But overall, good list.
Though it is better than either Discovery or Picard...
*runs*
A pity you ran, I would have liked to know what your favorite part of The Orville is.
Is it the penis jokes?***
The ridiculous writing?
Bad/ mediocre acting (with one or two exceptions)?
The dumb captain needlessly putting his subordinates' lifes at risk several times? Best joke of the entire show so far, which is not even intentional, is when that guy seriously claims to be good at his job.
The massive soap opera portions like the relationship problems between the captain and his ex-wife, the slime alien officer running after the human doctor (stupid cliché), the doctor raising her kids, or the poor pilot who can't find a girlfriend, or the poor security officer who can't find a boyfriend (SO EXCITING)?
Copy-and-paste writing from Berman era Trek episodes (TNG and VOY in particular) but also some TOS and Black Mirror?
In addition to the massive amount of "direct inspiration" the creators
In this sense, I always get a WTF moment when an Orville fan(boy) suggests that Modern Trek copies TO... which it doesn't.
The dystopic elements? Yes, that's right - as the pseudo-Federation has a space Nazi member species (Moclans) that exterts and encourages discrimination, persecution, and denunciation while the protagonists are completely clueless. Imagine the Cardassians or Breen were full Federation members in Star Trek, and Picard's or Sisko's crew would be like, "Hey wait, you guys keep slaves? You raid worlds? You are brutal oppressors? Oh, it sucks but you may stay."
Furthermore, the Moclans had become the so-called Union's primary supplier of weapons, so they are dependent on space Nazis, something that even captain Dumbass had warned them of.
On top of that, they ask those very advanced androids (who turn out to be genocidal killing machines) to join despite having basically zero information about their civilisation and history. Apparently everyone can join, no standards, no scrutiny needed.
And when you encounter a society of artificial lifeforms, you may venture a guess what happened to their creators.
Well, F*CK IT! It's all right as long as there are space ships, the guys on the screen wear loud, colourful uniforms, and have an adventure of the week unless they are busy with those much more important soap opera matters ofc.
If new Trek shows were like TO (with up-to-date special efffects, high quality sets and real actors) my response would be "No, thanks." Perhaps I would start a thread like this with an opening post containing less whining and no "Damn producers ruined my fanon."
Even though that's not to say that I don't like the episodic format.
***Needless to say, humour is subjective. The penis jokes actually didn't even bother me, a few times I found TO genuinely funny (practicals jokes, Latchcomb).
I gave it a chance, time to find its way, I wanted to like it. No one else was willing to fill the old-school episodic storytelling gap. Unfortunately Seth M. and his writing staff botched it, Orville sucks, it sucks hard.
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Is Star Trek currently going the wrong way? No. In a sense it was during the Berman era when they tried to apply the TNG formula most of the time.
Is it going the ideal way? No. Discovery suffers from the tendency of ultra high stakes together with the habit of introducing great mysteries and drag them on for more or less the entire season. I think if you do that the revelation gets almost inevitably disappointing.
Burnham herself is not a problem, but the writers seem to constantly feel the need to shoehorn her into every (side) plot, plus her frequent crying and whispering.
Unfortunately, Saru - my favorite character in S3 aside from his weird decision to make Tilly his XO - is kind of sidelined towards the finale. Blast those alleged plans of ST: Academy or Khan (if still a thing), I want a captain (+ ambassador) Saru show instead!! He should take his rightful XO Nilsson with him.
Not a fan of the Mirror Universe except Shattered Mirror (DS9) and In a M. D. (ENT).
PIC problems: Pace 1st half of S1. Multiple nonsensical coincidences.
I don't like Q/ space wizards. Time travel is a delicate thing that should be avoided.
At large: Something only DS9 did well within the franchise, the lack of interesting, multilayered villains. Although they actually shouldn't be evil villains in the first place.
T'Kuvma, Voq, and Kol? Evil. Barely worth mentioning.
Lorca? Evil. What a waste.
Control? Super evil.
Osyraa? Evil. First thing she does is murdering her own nephew who is an a-hole but still. She enjoys exploiting helpless worlds. The negotiation is nice, though she refuses to take responsibility for her crap and shows even more evilness.
General Oh plus her followers? At least they think they got a point but still lack characterisation and screen time.
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I take it you’re new to Star Trek?
What's your point, ST was just as bad or worse sometimes, so TO's flaws are alright? Atrocities like Threshhold, Justice, or Shades of Gray are at least exceptions to the rule.
Besides, as I said, a great deal of Seth Macfarlene's fan fic consists of soap opera stuff and plain boredom, don't know about you, but I don't watch a Space Opera or sci-fi in general in order to see who starts a romantic relationship with whom, or whether a former couple will ever reunite etc.
Not to mention the plot holes...
As far as I'm concerned the show could get renamed "ST: Sub Rosa" or "Worst of ST on Steroids."
There is also a good kind of "ridiculousness," like when the ship enters a 2D universe it shows what might have been (or could still be but I lost hope), unfortunately even this is just some B plot.
William Shatner's ludicrous overacting and Marina Siritis' (occasionally) bad performances aside, I don't see any Trek actor who deserves to be put on a level with most of The Orville's cast.
These are just my personal impressions and thoughts, It's not like I really HATE Orville, I actually even hope it continues for the sake of its fans. I simply wonder what exactly they appreciate about it, it's episodic, sure, but you already got hundreds of this kind of stories, pretty much the same stories in several cases.
Probably the same reason I like Lower Decks, the show is fun and engaging with likable characters. It doesn’t take itself seriously just for the sake of modern doom and gloom that people have glommed into.
The Orville is an odd case for me. At first it was OK, but there was no "there" there for me to grab on to, to really engage with. The characters were hit and miss, and the story lines shifted from funny to serious and then left it behind. It highlights the aspects of episodic I really don't like-things just don't matter. Hard to care at that point.
I think most of the characters are neither likeable nor unlikable, just forgettable, while the captian is an irresponsible jerk, pseudo-Worf's husband an a-hole, and pseudo-Data a traitor (in a sense) who gets a change of heart because of that child and casually pardoned (lol).
Did you even watch it? It kinda DOES want to be taken seriously, take one of the first episodes when pseudo-Worf's daughter is supposed to have a sex transformation, the subject and tone is anything but light-hearted. Btw, pseudo-Worf approves the transformation at first, but then changes his mind after watching "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer", and still one of the better episodes compared to the rest.
No doom and gloom? Except for those killing Androids who wage total war of extermination on organic species and that species of religious zealots who want to kill everyone.
Did you even read what I wrote? It doesn’t take itself seriously just to follow the trends of other shows. That doesn’t preclude it from telling serious stories, just that it avoids “OMG!!! The universe is falling every episode!” Every episode/season of the CBS live action has gotten to the point of me not caring, you can only threaten everything so many times before it becomes incredibly dull.
Oh please. I mentioned the ep. about the daughter to clarify that the show wants to be more than a parody/ comedy which would otherwise change the perception of high-stakes stories. You cleary implied that the "fun" show doesn't follow the alleged "trend" which in fact it does. Is the universal threat ever-present in TO? No.** But the same is true for DSC since a ton of its episodes/ stories can stand on their own such as the Tardigrade arc, Mudd's time loop, Pahvo's inhabitants, Burnham and Spock, New Eden and so forth plus almost every ep. of S3 even though it doesn't really follow the trope in the first place or at least not in the "usual" way.
**What's more, this is problematic for the show's plausibility, how can the Orville crew have time for their mundane affairs while the galaxy is fighting or preparing for the ultimate war?
Season 1 of PIC is a different story altogether. Hint: The end is not coming because some people think it is.
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You might disagree but as noted there is also an engagement level with the characters too. For many, including
@Ricky Spanish there is a general gloomy nature of DSC and Picard that is not desired in a show, while Orville, while occasionally having such episodes, has a different style of characters, more fun, if you will, even when the stakes are high. There is a reflective nature that is necessarily morose, as Discovery can often interpret as being.
Not everyone agrees, but I won't begrudge the opposing view either. One works, the other doesn't. IDIC and all that jazz.
