Garrett Wang

[Oddish]

You can't possible compare Captain Janeway with the horrible, rude, and obviously mentally disturbed Alixus!

I'm not. Just noting that the timelines line up, and that they're both women with cult leader charisma.

Personally, I don't like when main characters are killed off, just like that. OK, if the actor dies, it's the only solution because if there is something I hate more than killing off main characters, then it is when they bring in another actor to play a certain character. That's really something which can make me abandon a certain series or series of movies.

I understand. It's just that as a writer, I've sometimes found it necessary to kill off characters I liked/identified with, to advance the story. Or, in one notable case, end an imminent love triangle.

The problem woith the writers for the series was that they kept him as "young Ensign Kim" for so long that he stagnated as character.

Yes. But i more blame the showrunners.

And in harry's case, a lot of things were wrong in that timeline. The poor guy actually made a fool of himself when he was about to present the new ship he had constructed so I can understand that a future on the lost Voyager must have been better in comparision.

Solution: Tell... the... truth. Explain that he was from an alternate timeline, and his past eight months were very different. Get a Betazoid to confirm that he's telling the truth, or have a Vulcan mind-meld with him and verify that he has very real memories of Voyager and Captain Janeway. In light of that, his advancement is slowed: maybe he makes lieutenant in 16 months instead of 8. But I think he could have gotten through that part. With Libby, it's tougher; a lot of their memories (including the proposal) are lost. But the feelings were obviously very much there.

And in the long run, The Doctor could fix it, like he did in the episode. Once they got Harry back, he had found a way to remove it.

Better yet... don't fix it. Like Nog joining Starfleet, Harry's character is suddenly changed. With his altered DNA come new abilities, and maybe more deja vu moments.

Like I said though, they got eight seconds to decide. And it's not as though they had to get on the Runabout right then and there or be stuck on the planet forever. And even if they don't turn their comm back on, there's no way Sisko doesn't send a follow-up team to check in.

I think that with the serpent-tongued Alixus and her bow-wielding enforcer gone, they saw reason. If they stayed, they made prudent use of technology afterward.

And in any case, I always thought it was the hell-box, not the departing people, the kids were staring at.

 

[fireproof78]

But I still find that era dystopian and boring, compared to other eras. Maybe it's the strict hierarchy or just too much doom-and-gloom in series about that era

Boring I can understand and the study of history is not for everyone. But dystopian and doom and gloom? At this point you use the terms for every part of human history you don't like. It's becoming rather meaningless.

 

[Oddish]

I think that in general, the medieval world is one that is most typically associated with fantasy, most notably swords and sorcery stories: Narnia, Lord of the Rings, Elder Scrolls games, etc.

 

[Lynx]

Boring I can understand and the study of history is not for everyone. But dystopian and doom and gloom? At this point you use the terms for every part of human history you don't like. It's becoming rather meaningless.

I like history, however there are times I find more interesting that the medeival ages.

However, I think that the huge amount of dystopian TV-series and movies about this era that we have had in recent years have made me a bit negative about the era as such. A couple of years ago it didn't bother me and Lord Of The Rings is actually very good.

I'm not. Just noting that the timelines line up, and that they're both women with cult leader charisma.

Charisma maybe. But otherwise there were great differences between them. Alixus created a cult while Janeway was forced into something similar. janeway, despite some crazy things in the later seasons were also a better leader and actually cared for her people, something Alixia didn't.

I understand. It's just that as a writer, I've sometimes found it necessary to kill off characters I liked/identified with, to advance the story. Or, in one notable case, end an imminent love triangle.

I haven't killed off any main character in any story I've written. I simply can't!
Not if I like the character and not even when the real life model for the character has died.

. But i more blame the showrunners.

Maybe they are more to blame. But look at DS9. Their writers could come up with good stories and character development. Couldn't the Voyager writers had done the same?

Solution: Tell... the... truth. Explain that he was from an alternate timeline, and his past eight months were very different. Get a Betazoid to confirm that he's telling the truth, or have a Vulcan mind-meld with him and verify that he has very real memories of Voyager and Captain Janeway. In light of that, his advancement is slowed: maybe he makes lieutenant in 16 months instead of 8. But I think he could have gotten through that part. With Libby, it's tougher; a lot of their memories (including the proposal) are lost. But the feelings were obviously very much there.

Harry actually did try to tell the truth and what happened? He got an anclet and was accused to be a Maquis sympathizer.

Better yet... don't fix it. Like Nog joining Starfleet, Harry's character is suddenly changed. With his altered DNA come new abilities, and maybe more deja vu moments.

Hmmm.......no. That would have complicated the story too much.

I think that with the serpent-tongued Alixus and her bow-wielding enforcer gone, they saw reason. If they stayed, they made prudent use of technology afterward.

And in any case, I always thought it was the hell-box, not the departing people, the kids were staring at.

I guess that the colony did develope into something better when they got rid of their female version of Pol Pot.

I think that in general, the medieval world is one that is most typically associated with fantasy, most notably swords and sorcery stories: Narnia, Lord of the Rings, Elder Scrolls games, etc.

Some of it is actually OK to read about and Lord Of The Rings is actually good.

But as I wrote as a reply to fireproof78, I think that the huge amount of dystopian TV-series and movies about this era that we have had in recent years have made me a bit negative about the era as such. A couple of years ago I wasn't that negative about it.

 

[fireproof78]

However, I think that the huge amount of dystopian TV-series and movies about this era that we have had in recent years have made me a bit negative about the era as such. A couple of years ago it didn't bother me and Lord Of The Rings is actually very good.

I mean, anything can be that way though I draw the line at the dystopian moniker, because it actually should mean something rather than "Stuff I don't like."

History is always a mixed bag because humans are a mixed bag. We are not all sunshine and roses and freaking Star Trek teaches us that!

 

[Oddish]

guess that the colony did develope into something better when they got rid of their female version of Pol Pot.

Alixus was misguided. Pol Pot was a mass murdering monster. You want that level of evil, there's this TNG show called "Half a Life"...

Hmmm.......no. That would have complicated the story too much.

Better for Harry to just stagnate, right?

Harry actually did try to tell the truth and what happened? He got an anclet and was accused to be a Maquis sympathizer.

Again, have him mind meld with a Vulcan to prove his sincerity. Imagine this...
LT. MARAK: "I've completed my mind meld with Ensign Kim. I found eight months of detailed memories of his time on Voyager, most notably of Captain Janeway. Apparently upon their first meeting, she admonished him not to call her 'sir'."
ADM. LARSON: "Yeah, that's Kathryn. Was Tom Paris featured?"
LT. MARAK: "Yes. He was Voyager's helm officer, and Ensign Kim's close friend."
ADM. LARSON: "All right. Sounds like Mr. Kim is who he says he is. Remove the anklet, and let's find out what he knows about Voyager. If they're out there in this timeline, we may be able to send them a message."

Maybe they are more to blame. But look at DS9. Their writers could come up with good stories and character development. Couldn't the Voyager writers had done the same?

The showrunners, chiefly Rick Berman if rumors are correct, wouldn't let them.

I haven't killed off any main character in any story I've written. I simply can't!

The guy I killed wasn't the main character, just an important one. Equivalent to a Chekov, or a Deanna Troi... or Harry Kim.

 

[fireproof78]

Better for Harry to just stagnate, right?

Static characters are the best characters. They are the least likely to offend.

 

[Oddish]

Static characters are the best characters. They are the least likely to offend.

Urghhh. I find Harry's lack of proper career advancement to be quite offensive, because it basically showed their contempt for the viewers.

 

[fireproof78]

Urghhh. I find Harry's lack of proper career advancement to be quite offensive, because it basically showed their contempt for the viewers.

Contempt, eh? Ok, well, I think it's just they took the easiest route possible. But, sure, they have contempt for their viewers...

 

[at Quark's]

Harry actually did try to tell the truth and what happened? He got an anclet and was accused to be a Maquis sympathizer.

Harry got himself into trouble because he had this attitude of 'don't believe me? I'll try to force my way through!', not for telling the truth. It started with him trying to break into classified files, for example, though I have no idea why the information that Daniel Byrd was among the lost should have been classified in the first place.

There was absolutely no reason for that. Had he remained calm and not broken into those files, yet insistent and provided them with details about Voyager that he couldn't have known, there's a decent possibility they eventually would have started to look into his story. After all, this is a universe with an evolved humanity where temporal anomalies and such aren't unheard of. He just shouldn't have tried to resolve it by force within 48 hours or so, there was no reason for him to hurry.

 

[Oddish]

Contempt, eh? Ok, well, I think it's just they took the easiest route possible. But, sure, they have contempt for their viewers...

Really, they didn't even do that. They mentioned (and tried to justify) Harry's lack of advancement in three seperate episodes they could have stuck another pip on his collar at the start of "Night" and been done with it. No fanfare, no extra footage, no dialogue required.

 

[fireproof78]

Really, they didn't even do that. They mentioned (and tried to justify) Harry's lack of advancement in three seperate episodes they could have stuck another pip on his collar at the start of "Night" and been done with it. No fanfare, no extra footage, no dialogue required.

Probably, but obviously the status quo mattered more. It's dumb, but hardly the contempt.

 

[drt]

I presume much of Voyager's largely static setting was a decree from UPN. The episodic nature makes it easier for new and casual viewers to immediately jump in or miss an episode here or there without getting lost.

I think people forget that prior to the 2009 film, one of the preconceived notions (complaints?) about Star Trek was that it had disappeared up it's own ass and was largely inaccessible to new viewers.

 

[at Quark's]

I presume much of Voyager's largely static setting was a decree from UPN. The episodic nature makes it easier for new and casual viewers to immediately jump in or miss an episode here or there without getting lost.

I think people forget that prior to the 2009 film, one of the preconceived notions (complaints?) about Star Trek was that it had disappeared up it's own ass and was largely inaccessible to new viewers.

I have to admit that, even though I like DS9 more in principle, when I just want to quickly see a random single episode, I'll select VOY or TNG sooner. Their episodic and 'status quo' nature has that going for them, at least. Or when I select a DS9 ep, an ep from an earlier season, or one I know is fairly standalone.

 

[Oddish]

I have to admit that, even though I like DS9 more in principle, when I just want to quickly see a random single episode, I'll select VOY or TNG sooner. Their episodic and 'status quo' nature has that going for them, at least. Or when I select a DS9 ep, an ep from an earlier season, or one I know is fairly standalone.

I am actually the same way, for the same reason. But given that Tom Paris changed rank twice, and Tuvok got promoted mid-series as well, it doesn't excuse Harry not getting the same.

 

[Sumire]

I am exactly the kind of “casual viewer” that broadcasters created the reset button to cater to. That said, I have never thought to myself “Wait a second, wasn’t that person an ensign in the last episode I caught? I’m pulled out of the narrative by the new rank!” However, conversely, I never really noticed or cared what rank anybody had. It’s only now, surrounded by fans who catalogue all the little details, that my love for Harry has made me upset that he was never promoted.

 

[at Quark's]

I am exactly the kind of “casual viewer” that broadcasters created the reset button to cater to. That said, I have never thought to myself “Wait a second, wasn’t that person an ensign in the last episode I caught? I’m pulled out of the narrative by the new rank!” However, conversely, I never really noticed or cared what rank anybody had. It’s only now, surrounded by fans who catalogue all the little details, that my love for Harry has made me upset that he was never promoted.

Same for me. I never even thought Harry's rank could be an issue till I started frequenting Star Trek sites But of course it's weird that he got the short end of the stick, so to speak.

Usually, rank inconsistency doesn't interest me, unless it's an actual plot point. For example, in Course: Oblivion, where Tom is still a Lt.Jg. when he should have been an Ensign, or the first scenes in Worst Case Scenario where B'Elanna likewise is an Ensign instead of a Lt.Jg. But in those cases, these are actually meant as subtle clues that not all is as it seems.

 

[fireproof78]

I am exactly the kind of “casual viewer” that broadcasters created the reset button to cater to. That said, I have never thought to myself “Wait a second, wasn’t that person an ensign in the last episode I caught? I’m pulled out of the narrative by the new rank!” However, conversely, I never really noticed or cared what rank anybody had. It’s only now, surrounded by fans who catalogue all the little details, that my love for Harry has made me upset that he was never promoted.

Rank usually doesn't bother me, any more than the torpedo thing would bother me, unless it was called out in some way. So, with Tom Paris he gets promoted, indicating things can change. No reason for him to stay the same. But Harry...doesn't? It just causes questions and then we the fans go back and find all these little rationalizations to address it.

Now, in the moment, while watching it, it still probably won't bother me. But, from a worldbuilding standpoint and character development, which is something I like a lot more now as I get older, it bothers me.

 

[Oddish]

Usually, rank inconsistency doesn't interest me, unless it's an actual plot point. For example, in Course: Oblivion, where Tom is still a Lt.Jg. when he should have been an Ensign, or the first scenes in Worst Case Scenario where B'Elanna likewise is an Ensign instead of a Lt.Jg. But in those cases, these are actually meant as subtle clues that not all is as it seems.

They were clever in the latter, carefully keeping B'Elanna's rank insignia in shadow, so there wasn't too much of a clue.

In any case, I'm the opposite. When a character who is apparently a competent performer gets shafted that way, it bothers the hell out of me. Doesn't matter whether it's a non-paranoid android, an indestructible redshirt (in gold), a neurotic helm officer with purple hair, or a pair of kids on the NX-01.

 

[DonIago]

Kim's rank might have been less of an issue for me except for (at least) two things:
1) When Tom gets demoted and then re-promoted, and the latter in a method such that Kim even points out, 'I don't see a box on my chair.'
2) When Kim's parents comment on the fact that he's still an ensign.

It's one thing to just passively have him remain an ensign for the entirety of the series, but to actually call out the weirdness and arguably even make fun of it got under my skin a bit.

It would be like a non-descript crewman on TNG interrupting Picard before a hazardous mission to say, 'Hey, maybe we should separate the ship first?' in that it makes Our Heroes look bad by highlighting something that makes no sense in-universe.