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Garrett Wang

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Actually, LaForge got promoted twice during TNG's run. From Lt. junior grade in season 1 to full lieutenant in between season 1 and 2, and again to Lt. Commander between season 2 and 3.

He did stay that at rank all the way to NEMESIS, though. But at least he got a promotion, unlike Harry.

The TNG character who truly got screwed in the lack of promotion was Data.
 
The Kazon, although not the most popular of VOY baddies and mostly likened to the Klingons but in a gang feud type of way weren't always that bad. Compared to the Klingons of DSC or the Conkerheads as I call them they were positively a new race who just vaguely resembled the people of Qu'Onos! :klingon:
JB
 
Actually, LaForge got promoted twice during TNG's run. From Lt. junior grade in season 1 to full lieutenant in between season 1 and 2, and again to Lt. Commander between season 2 and 3.

He did stay that at rank all the way to NEMESIS, though. But at least he got a promotion, unlike Harry.

The TNG character who truly got screwed in the lack of promotion was Data.

There are actually four characters that I think got it bad...

Harry is arguably the worst, because there. Was. No. Justification. For. It. WHATSOEVER. Every other ensign, including Tom on Voyager, got a promotion without changing jobs.

Data was almost as bad, but the idea that people might have gotten confused if the first and second officer were the same rank provides some (but very flimsy) justification. If Data was third in line for command, he should have had the same rank as Deanna and Beverly.

Number three is Travis Mayweather... even though my head canon is that Riker's holosimulation wasn't historically accurate, he was still an ensign for at least four years, despite being the most competent member of the NX-01 crew. It's easy to see why the Dead Stop station wanted his brain... stealing Archer's would have reduced its IQ, and stealing Trip's would probably have caused it to greet visitors with a southern accent.

And Brad Boimler rounds out the list. He may not have the competence or seniority of the other three, but he was DEMOTED FOR NO FRICKIN' REASON! He should have gotten a LTJG berth on another ship; I'm sure Starfleet could find one.
 
I've never understood the fascination with the medeival time. A horrible era in the history of mankind.
Except, also an era of learning, development of strategies, discoveries and some scientific methods still used today.

Also, it's fascinating from a survival point of view. How did humanity survive?

main characters are there to be liked and respected, not killed off.
Both absolutely can be true. Respect does not mean "free from death."
 
Except, also an era of learning, development of strategies, discoveries and some scientific methods still used today.

Also, it's fascinating from a survival point of view. How did humanity survive?


Both absolutely can be true. Respect does not mean "free from death."

I'm not so sure about discoveries and such in the medeival era. Most of the great discoveries came later. Not o mention that It seems to have been a very stiff and boring society to live in, unless if I have been rich and mighty.

As for characters, killing of a main character should be a rare exception, not something which happens in each and every series.
 
I'm not so sure about discoveries and such in the medeival era
Really?

What about the mechanical clock, printing press, compass, astrolab, stirrups, eyeglasses, farming innovations that allowed for better crop yields?

Yeah, it's way more of a vibrant era than I was ever taught in school.

As for characters, killing of a main character should be a rare exception, not something which happens in each and every series.
Well, as is pretty typical, I will completely disagree.
 
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It's interesting to note that the only series, thus far, that didn't seem to have an issue with promotions is DS9.
DS9 was about perfect. The only main character not promoted was Worf, and he had just been bumped to LCDR in "Generations", so it made sense.

Both absolutely can be true. Respect does not mean "free from death."

As for characters, killing of a main character should be a rare exception, not something which happens in each and every series.

The main character death was questionably handled in "Skin of Evil", and just a bad decision in "Tears of the Prophets". But there are right ways and right times to eliminate a character. These include:
- Convincing the audience that no character is safe.
- Establishing a character as a major hero.
- Removing a character who is stagnating.
- Bringing another character who has nothing to do into prominence.
- Resolving a love triangle. If you aren't willing to leave the third lonely, and can't just throw a convenient person for them to fall for.
- Explaining the death or departure of a lead actor.
 
When it comes to Harry Kim, he was obviously under-used and the potential for the character was never used.

Those in charge have came up with the lame excuse that "the writers couldn't write for Kes" as some excuse for dumping her. Honestly, that comment seems more suitable for Harry Kim who they obviously couldn't write for.

If we look at the first three seasons when we had both Harry and Kes in the series, Harry has three episodes which features him: Emanations, Non Sequitur and Favorite Son.

Non Sequitur is actually good, so is also Favorite Son despite the somewhat silly premise. I mean, how could anyole believe that harry actually was some alien who had been sent to grow up on a distant world and then all of a sudden get an urge to return to Taresia? If Captain Lynx had been on the ship, I would have beamed him off Taresia as soon as possible and sent him to The Doc and let him stay there until the mystery was solved.

Emanations is plain boring but that's not Harry's fault. Then we have The Chute where Harry is a prominent character but in this case mostly for him to be sveverely beaten up and be the "whipping boy" of the series, a syndrome which harry also suffered from in the series.

Otherwise, he was mostly a background character even if he had some good moments even then.

But compare that with the Voyager books from the same era where Harry is actually doing something:
Caretaker, written by L.A. Graf is basically rthe same story as the pilot episode with a few details added. The same action for harry here as in the TV-episode.

In The Escape, written by Dean Wesley Smith and Kristine Kathryn Rusch, Harry, B'Elanna and Neelix by accident ends up in a civilsation which can travel in time and where unauthorized time-travel is punished by death penalty. Harry is actually good in this one and with help from Janeway and a sympathetic agent from the planet they manage to escape the death penalty.

In Ragnarok, twritten by Nathan Archer, here's a lot of action for Harry. He ends up on an alien spaceship where there's some action for him. Unfortunately, he's also fatally injured and close to death, the "whipping boy" syndrome again which unfortunately occurs in some books too.

Violations, written by Susan Wright hasn't so much action for Harry but he actually helps Tom to break out from prison!

Not so much action for Harry in Incident At Arbuk, written by John Gregory Betancourt either.

In The Murdered Sun, written by Christie Golden, Harry plays an important role to save a mystery by showing up his computer skills.

In Ghost Of A Chance, written by Mark A. Garland and Charles G.McGraw, Harry, Janeway and Tuvok are stranded on an alien planet while the ship is almost taken over by a devious enemy. Some good acton for Harry and his colleagues on the planet but unfortunately Harry is badly injured again. "The whipping boy" syndrome again!

In Cybersong, written by S.N. Lewitt, Harry is injured in an explosion on an abandoned alien ship and near death again (oh that "whipping boy syndrome") but later on he saves the day by creating a firewall which prevents the mysterious AI alien to take control over Voyager again.

In The Final Fury, written by Dafydd Ab Hugh, Harry is involved in some action while going in a shuttle with Tom Paris to investigate a mysterious alien moon. OK, both ends up in sickbay but not in so bad shape after all.

Bless The Beasts, written by Karen haber has a lot of action for both Harry and Tom when they are shipwrecked on an alien planet and captured by hostile aliens. They escape, are close to drowning but saved in the lsat possible minute and ends up in sickbay.

There is some action for Harry in The Garden which is written by Melissa Scott but it's mostly at the end of the book when he, B'Elanna, Tuvok and some otther crewmembers are in a citadel which is attacked by the hostile Andirrim.

In Crysalis, written by David Niall Wilson, Harry,Janeway and Tuvok are looking for a missing crewmember when they are attacked by the aliens responsible for the abduction of the crewmember. They find shelter in a cave but when an earthquake occurs, Hrry breaks his leg and falls down in a cliff but is rescued by Tom and Kes. Unfortuantely that means that Harry ends up in sickbay again badly injured. Once again "the whipping boy" syndrome.

In Her Klingon Soul, written by Michael Jan Friedman, there's a lot of action for Harry. He and B'Elanna are captured by the kazon-Ogla and then the kazon are attacked by the Nograkh who also takes harry and B'Elanna as prisoners who have to work in a mine as slave labors. However, they manage to escape and harry shows up his piloting skills when he, B'Elanna and the lkiberated prisoners are running away in a ship from the Nograkh.

Mosaic, written by Jeri Taylor is actually a Janeway biography with flashbacks to her life before Voyager. It has Harry, Tuvok, Neelix, Kes and some other crewmembers stranded on an alien planet while Voyager is attacked by the Kazon-Vistik. Kes and Harry explores an alien cave which proves helpful for the stranded crew.

The Black Shore which is written by Greg Cox is actually my personal favorite among the Voyager books.
While Kes plays the most important role, it also has a lot of action for all the main characters. Harry and Tom Paris are attacked by hostile aliens with strange mental abilities but Tuvok comes to their help. Later when the aliens tries to invade and take over Voyager, Harry is among those who defends the ship.

In Marooned, written by Christie Golden, a pirat abducts Kes and Janeway, Tuvok, Torres, Paris and neelix are stranded on a hostile planet when they try to liberate Kes. Harry plays an important role in a mission to the sentinel ship which protects the pirate base from unwanted visitors.

In Mosaic, written by Jeri Taylor, we have the background stories of the crewmembers (except Janeway whose story was told in Pathways which is also written by Jeri Taylor. Harry's life story is unfortunately the least exciting but still a good read. At the end he gets injured again with a crushed foot whileparticipating in an escape from an alien prison camp. "The whipping boy syndrome" again! Poor Harry!

Flashback, written by Diane Carey has basically the same story as the TV episode. Not so much Harry Kim here.

In Echoes, written by Dean Wesley Smith, Kristine Kathryn Rusch and Nina Kiriki Hoffman, the Voyager crew visit ap lanet which has been hit by a malfunction in the planet's transporter system whic causes a rift which opens up paralell universes. Not so much harry Kim here either, except for his not so nice attitude mot the Paris from another reality who ends up on the ship.

I made a spoiler because there might be some people wod haven't read those great books or at least not read all of them and I don't want to spoin the excitement for them. However, with the exception of the occurring "whipping boy syndrome" which have harry being badly injured and in some cases close to death, there are a lot more action and meaningful events for harry in those books than in the TV-series which means that there were authors who actually could use the character's potential to come up with good stories about him.
 
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If we look at the first three seasons when we had both Harry and Kes in the series, Harry has three episodes which features him: Emanations, Non Sequitur and Favorite Son.

I agree that "Non Sequitur" is good, but they REALLY needed to have Harry having second thoughts. Consider that he's home, and can look forward to spending his days putting pips on that collar and nights getting hot with Libby. No more Delta Quadrant dangers, no more cold showers, no more captain intent on keeping him at ensign until the heat death of the universe... would you be eager to go back?

Those in charge have came up with the lame excuse that "the writers couldn't write for Kes" as some excuse for dumping her. Honestly, that comment seems more suitable for Harry Kim who they obviously couldn't write for.

And that's really unbelievable when you think about it. A newbie like Harry should be incredibly easy to write for; there's so many places you can take him!

I mean, how could anyole believe that harry actually was some alien who had been sent to grow up on a distant world and then all of a sudden get an urge to return to Taresia?

A better way to play it would be for the Doctor to know (and the Taresians to freely admit) that it was a retrovirus, and that Harry's physiology was compatible with it. The overall effect (Harry turning into a Taresian) would be the same.

However, with the exception of the occurring "whipping boy syndrome" which have harry being badly injured and in some cases close to death, there are a lot more action and meaningful events for harry in those books than in the TV-series which means that there were authors who actually could use the character's potential to come up with good stories about him.

Sounds like Voyager's writers should have read more.
 
I agree that "Non Sequitur" is good, but they REALLY needed to have Harry having second thoughts. Consider that he's home, and can look forward to spending his days putting pips on that collar and nights getting hot with Libby. No more Delta Quadrant dangers, no more cold showers, no more captain intent on keeping him at ensign until the heat death of the universe... would you be eager to go back?
I think that's my biggest struggle with Voyager. Yes, the oft repeated "reset button" gets complained about, but it's more that people are so willing to be like 'Nope, I want to be on Voyager." It feels very much like that "Paradise" episode of DS9 in terms of everyone wanting to stay no matter what! I mean...what?
 
Maybe they have a guilt complex. I feel guilty buying gloves if I already have one pair and I could donate the money to a charitable cause. I seem to radiate “soft touch” energy so much so that I no longer carry any cash.

Have I been diagnosed with more than one neurodivergency? Yes. Was I raised Catholic? Also yes. Can anyone point to these things and say “It figures”? Very much yes. :) Still, even in the future people could be overly… maybe even neurotically, concerned about “doing the right thing.” In fact, living in a society that has been called utopian, maybe you would feel even more pressure to “be your best self.”
 
It feels very much like that "Paradise" episode of DS9 in terms of everyone wanting to stay no matter what! I mean...what?

Well of course. Cult mistress Alixus escaped from custody and obliterated a Starfleet captain named Janeway with a transporter "malfunction". Then, she paid a dubious Orion plastic surgeon to transform her face and voice to match Captain Janeway's, then started a new life for herself. Upon being stranded in the Delta Quadrant, she began building her own little cult. Given the threat level there, she can no longer shun technology. The Potential of Man is only good for so much.

And Voyager's replicators actually worked fine all along, and only drained about 0.00000001% of the power used by the warp engines. Alixus/Janeway just doesn't approve of them. This one technology she will still avoid.

IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!!!!!!! :eek:

Maybe they have a guilt complex. I feel guilty buying gloves if I already have one pair and I could donate the money to a charitable cause. I seem to radiate “soft touch” energy so much so that I no longer carry any cash.

Same, really. If I buy myself something nice, I often find myself throwing a comparable amount of cash World Vision's way.

Have I been diagnosed with more than one neurodivergency? Yes.

Same. ASD and fandoms, especially Trek, seem to go together. :vulcan:

Still, even in the future people could be overly… maybe even neurotically, concerned about “doing the right thing.” In fact, living in a society that has been called utopian, maybe you would feel even more pressure to “be your best self.”

Yeah, but Harry could be his best self as son to his parents, husband to Libby, dad to their kids, and Lieutenant Kim to the Starfleet Corps of Engineers. ;)
 
Same, really. If I buy myself something nice, I often find myself throwing a comparable amount of cash World Vision's way.
I don't even buy something nice for me. My wife has to ask what I want and then says "Ok, I bought it."
 
I think that's my biggest struggle with Voyager. Yes, the oft repeated "reset button" gets complained about, but it's more that people are so willing to be like 'Nope, I want to be on Voyager." It feels very much like that "Paradise" episode of DS9 in terms of everyone wanting to stay no matter what! I mean...what?

That's actually a solid criticism, because the one thing that completely soured me about "PARADISE" was the fact no one wanted to leave. Or even considered it.
 
That's actually a solid criticism, because the one thing that completely soured me about "PARADISE" was the fact no one wanted to leave. Or even considered it.
The kids clearly wanted to. The adults may not have stepped up to go on the Runabout in the eight seconds they had to decide, but I'm betting some of them left not long after. Steven, at the very least.
 
I don't even buy something nice for me. My wife has to ask what I want and then says "Ok, I bought it."

A good way to do it... but no sane woman would marry me, and they took away my key card to the sanitarium when they found out what I was doing there. So, the crazy ones are off-limits too. :razz:

The kids clearly wanted to. The adults may not have stepped up to go on the Runabout in the eight seconds they had to decide, but I'm betting some of them left not long after. Steven, at the very least.
It wasn't a bad little place to live, really. Just shut down the anti-tech field, bring in some replicators and building materials, maybe a hover car or two. And a fully stocked medical lab, of course.
 
Really?

What about the mechanical clock, printing press, compass, astrolab, stirrups, eyeglasses, farming innovations that allowed for better crop yields?

Yeah, it's way more of a vibrant era than I was ever taught in school.
You do have some points here, at least when it comes to inventions, discoveries and such.

But I still find that era dystopian and boring, compared to other eras. Maybe it's the strict hierarchy or just too much doom-and-gloom in series about that era.

The main character death was questionably handled in "Skin of Evil", and just a bad decision in "Tears of the Prophets". But there are right ways and right times to eliminate a character. These include:
- Convincing the audience that no character is safe.
- Establishing a character as a major hero.
- Removing a character who is stagnating.
- Bringing another character who has nothing to do into prominence.
- Resolving a love triangle. If you aren't willing to leave the third lonely, and can't just throw a convenient person for them to fall for.
- Explaining the death or departure of a lead actor.

Personally, I don't like when main characters are killed off, just like that. OK, if the actor dies, it's the only solution because if there is something I hate more than killing off main characters, then it is when they bring in another actor to play a certain character. That's really something which can make me abandon a certain series or series of movies.

Naming and discussing all series I've stopped to watch because a main character has been killed off would make the post too long and be too much off topic. However, it has happened that I stayed with certain series, most notably TNG, DS9, NCIS and the CSI series when things like that has happened but the reasons for me to continue watching have been the quality of the series and remaining main characters I've lilwed better than the departed one. Asan example, I didn't like when agent Todd was killled off in NCIS but I liked the seires and the other character so much that I continued watching, sometyhing I've done up to now despite some other changes in the cast. However, the recent changes had made the series so bad that I decided to quit, not to mention that thwe stories aren't as good as they used to be.

Well of course. Cult mistress Alixus escaped from custody and obliterated a Starfleet captain named Janeway with a transporter "malfunction". Then, she paid a dubious Orion plastic surgeon to transform her face and voice to match Captain Janeway's, then started a new life for herself. Upon being stranded in the Delta Quadrant, she began building her own little cult. Given the threat level there, she can no longer shun technology. The Potential of Man is only good for so much.

And Voyager's replicators actually worked fine all along, and only drained about 0.00000001% of the power used by the warp engines. Alixus/Janeway just doesn't approve of them. This one technology she will still avoid.

IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!!!!!!! :eek:

Oh please, now you're disappointing me. :weep:

You can't possible compare Captain Janeway with the horrible, rude, and obviously mentally disturbed Alixus!

No matter what opinions you might have about Janeway, she is far from being so disgusting as Alixus. I remember when i watched the Paradise episode for the first time and wished that Alixus would be killed off. I found he downright obnoxious.

There are also some differences between Alixus and Janeway. Alixus forced her people to stay on the planet with a combination of terror, threats and downright brainwashing. janeway, on the other hand were ready to let the crewmembers who wanted to stay on The 37's planet leave the ship. Another difference is that many crewmembers on Voyager prefer to stay on the ship with their friends and colleagues instead of jumping off in an unknown area with aliens they don't know anything about while mosty of Alixus's people would have ataken the first opportunity to leave, at least until they had become totally brainwashed.

Same. ASD and fandoms, especially Trek, seem to go together. :vulcan:
:guffaw:
Well, you might have a point here!


I agree that "Non Sequitur" is good, but they REALLY needed to have Harry having second thoughts. Consider that he's home, and can look forward to spending his days putting pips on that collar and nights getting hot with Libby. No more Delta Quadrant dangers, no more cold showers, no more captain intent on keeping him at ensign until the heat death of the universe... would you be eager to go back?
I agree with your statement when it comes to the writing and that Harry should have had second thoughts. At least for a while.

If I had been Harry, I would at least have considered to stay. But when a lot of things in that timeline is wrong?

Hmm, I don't know. I wouldn't mind to go back to "happier times", maybe make a slight change to something I did wrong back then. But what if I end up like Picard in Tapestry and my future life would be completly miserable compared to what I have now? And in harry's case, a lot of things were wrong in that timeline. The poor guy actually made a fool of himself when he was about to present the new ship he had constructed so I can understand that a future on the lost Voyager must have been better in comparision.



And that's really unbelievable when you think about it. A newbie like Harry should be incredibly easy to write for; there's so many places you can take him!
Which was proved in the Voyager books!
The problem woith the writers for the series was that they kept him as "young Ensign Kim" for so long that he stagnated as character.

A better way to play it would be for the Doctor to know (and the Taresians to freely admit) that it was a retrovirus, and that Harry's physiology was compatible with it. The overall effect (Harry turning into a Taresian) would be the same.

I agree.
And in the long run, The Doctor could fix it, like he did in the episode. Once they got Harry back, he had found a way to remove it.



Sounds like Voyager's writers should have read more.
At least they should have thought more, takling time to develope the characters and use their potential, like the writers in DS9 did.
I also think that they should have read some of the books and got some ideas out of it. In fact, some of the books, like The Black Shore, Marooned, The Garden and maybe The Escape are so good that they could and maybe should have been used for TV episodes.
 
The kids clearly wanted to. The adults may not have stepped up to go on the Runabout in the eight seconds they had to decide, but I'm betting some of them left not long after. Steven, at the very least.

I know that last shot with the children was meant to illustrate that they wanted to go, and I agree with you there. But none of the adults? Really? Not even Steven, who was right there?

That's the problem I have with it, and it actually hurts the episode. It's a really good episode until that moment... it's a rare case where the ending really lowers an otherwise good episode. (I know I am in the minority about this, but this happened with "THRESHOLD". It's a very solid episode with great horror elements, good character scenes for Tom, and an interesting mystery with what's happening to him. Take out the evolution explanation and the salamander babies, and I guarantee that episode would rank better with most people.)
 
Like I said though, they got eight seconds to decide. And it's not as though they had to get on the Runabout right then and there or be stuck on the planet forever. And even if they don't turn their comm back on, there's no way Sisko doesn't send a follow-up team to check in.
 
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