Enterprise-A Questions

[Riley]

I've never cared for the notion that the Enterprise-A was any other ship, even the Yorktown. Scotty says "new ship," not "new Enterprise," and I believe that's enough to indicate it's a new ship.

As for her decommissioning, I think it was a missed opportunity to go with a simplified idea simply so that the general audience would understand that this was the last mission of the old crew. Kirk's final log says "This ship, and her history, will shortly become the care of another crew." There could have been room for an interim crew, which I go with in my own head canon, which doesn't acknowledge the existence of Generations as it was filmed.

As for those old DC Comics, they were glorious. I was born in '76 and my brother's comic books, TOS reruns and the TOS films were a huge part of my childhood. I read those issues with Kirk and crew on the Excelsior once my brother moved out (he didn't let me touch his comics!) and once I began collecting and reading on my own, I read the Peter David relaunch and the TNG series by Michael Jan Friedman. Those were and remain excellent comics in terms of writing and art. I highly recommend picking them up if you've never read them. I still have mine in a longbox somewhere...

 

[Dukhat]

I've never cared for the notion that the Enterprise-A was any other ship, even the Yorktown. Scotty says "new ship," not "new Enterprise," and I believe that's enough to indicate it's a new ship.

That's a tough one. I really can't see any justification at all for Starfleet retiring a Constitution class starship that was only a few years old, even if it was damaged in the fight with Chang's BoP. At least with the ship possibly being older, it would make more sense. Until PIC, there was a theory that the new Enterprise-A was recommissioned under a new name and registry once the B was commissioned, but the implication in PIC was that it was immediately sent to the Museum, and that's where it stayed.

As for her decommissioning, I think it was a missed opportunity to go with a simplified idea simply so that the general audience would understand that this was the last mission of the old crew. Kirk's final log says "This ship, and her history, will shortly become the care of another crew." There could have been room for an interim crew, which I go with in my own head canon, which doesn't acknowledge the existence of Generations as it was filmed.

The line was clearly meant to foreshadow the TNG crew, and not some interim crew for the A.

 

[David cgc]

The line was clearly meant to foreshadow the TNG crew, and not some interim crew for the A.

Well, both. Isn't the story that there were concepts for TUC where Kirk literally passed command over to Picard, and Col. Worf was just normal Worf, until they were told that the TOS and TNG Enterprises are different ships with the same name, and they take place 70 years apart? I wouldn't be surprised if Kirk and Spock speaking quite literally about the ship staying in service after the crew moved on was a relic of that understanding of the situation.

 

[Dukhat]

Well, both. Isn't the story that there were concepts for TUC where Kirk literally passed command over to Picard, and Col. Worf was just normal Worf, until they were told that the TOS and TNG Enterprises are different ships with the same name, and they take place 70 years apart? I wouldn't be surprised if Kirk and Spock speaking quite literally about the ship staying in service after the crew moved on was a relic of that understanding of the situation.

I've never heard of any of that. That would have made zero sense to have the entire crew of the Enterprise-D as cameos at the end of the movie, even if it had worked out chronological-wise. That sounds more like someone taking the scene out of context to justify his fan theory.

 

[Yaroze86]

So, I want to point this out:

NCC-2004 along with NCC-2032 were used for the display in Star Trek Generations helm console, this ship's silhouette was that of the refit Excelsior-class like the USS Enterprise-B. In the episode Flashback using still the panels from STG, when Lieutenant Tuvok suffered flashbacks to a false memory created by a virus masquerading as a repressed memory engram while serving on the USS Excelsior. This display was reused for the sequence. Tuvok's father was serving in an unknown capacity aboard the ''Yorktown'' that was mentioned in this episode. When Michael Okuda wrote ''Star Trek Encyclopedia'', Okuda described the 2293 ''Yorktown''; the one Tuvok's father served on; as the ''second'' ship to bear the name.

According to the ST:E, "''Roddenberry reportedly suggested the second NCC-1701-A, launched at the end of ''Star Trek IV'', had previously been named USS ''Yorktown'' since it seemed unlikely that Starfleet could have built a new ''Enterprise'' so quickly. If this was the case, the ''Yorktown'' may have made it safely back to Earth and been repaired and renamed, or perhaps there was a newer, replacement ''Yorktown'' already under construction at the time of the probe crisis.''" The latter scenario could be supported by dialogue from ''Star Trek V'' where the ''Enterprise'' is described as a "new ship" by Scotty, whereas the former scenario serves as a convenient rationale for the difficulties Scotty had of getting the apparently recently refitted ship (therefore also fitting his "new ship" remark, akin to a similar remark Will Decker had already made on the refit-''Enterprise'' in TMP) back in operational order after the debilitating effects the Whale Probe had inflicted on it.

So, this begs to question if there was a already an Excelsior class USS Yorktown NCC-2004 by ST:G that replaced the old Yorktown that turned into the ENT-A. I think this was Okuda's intention but sadly it's not in canon.

 

[Dukhat]

So, I want to point this out:

NCC-2004 along with NCC-2032 were used for the display in Star Trek Generations helm console, this ship's silhouette was that of the refit Excelsior-class like the USS Enterprise-B.

Link to this display?

 

[Yaroze86]

Only viewable one is on

https://roddenberry.x.io/2293-uss-enterprise-ncc-1701-b/?view=Main

This is the display in question:

http://archive.frogland.co.uk/LCARS/LCARS%20-%20Movie%20Era/Ent-B/ENT-B%20navigation%20and%20ops.jpg

This is the blueprint of it.

Ent-B

Ent-B Archive of Star Trek Set Blueprints

archive.frogland.co.uk

 

[Dukhat]

Ok, I see three refit Excelsior top-view silhouettes on that star map, but I can’t make out what they are labeled.

 

[Yaroze86]

This is close ups of the Rod-Archive maps

MJrOORy

u5gHnBo

 

[Dukhat]

Did you create this closeup, or is this a closeup of the actual display?

 

[Ronald Held]

The E-A was retired, partially to honor Kirk and his senior officers?

 

[Yaroze86]

Did you create this closeup, or is this a closeup of the actual display?

This is a close up of the display from Roddenberry Archive as seen in the walkthrough there.

 

[mithril]

Well, both. Isn't the story that there were concepts for TUC where Kirk literally passed command over to Picard, and Col. Worf was just normal Worf, until they were told that the TOS and TNG Enterprises are different ships with the same name, and they take place 70 years apart? I wouldn't be surprised if Kirk and Spock speaking quite literally about the ship staying in service after the crew moved on was a relic of that understanding of the situation.

I've never heard of any of that. That would have made zero sense to have the entire crew of the Enterprise-D as cameos at the end of the movie, even if it had worked out chronological-wise. That sounds more like someone taking the scene out of context to justify his fan theory.

pretty much would have to be crazy fan theory since TUC came out during season 4 of TNG, by when it was very very clear that TNG was set most of a century later on a totally different ship. the exact timing wouldn't be confirmed until season 6's 'relics' but it was made very very clear in the promotional material for TNG season 1 that it was set many decades after the TOS films.


as far as the 'yorktown vs new build' question, there is no reason why it couldn't be a bit of both.. with the Ent-A being built quickly from spare parts and salvaged bits of ships being scrapped, with the biggest contributor being the old USS Yorktown. thus you get a mix of both old worn parts and brand new parts, which would contribute to all the bugs the ship had in ST:V.

 

[David cgc]

pretty much would have to be crazy fan theory since TUC came out during season 4 of TNG, by when it was very very clear that TNG was set most of a century later on a totally different ship. the exact timing wouldn't be confirmed until season 6's 'relics' but it was made very very clear in the promotional material for TNG season 1 that it was set many decades after the TOS films.

The people who make the shows and movies aren't necessarily fans who were closely following TNG (and some people don't have a strong sense for the aesthetics involved and don't really see the difference between the various Enterprises and uniforms). I wasn't able to find a source for the idea being bandied about of Kirk literally handing over the chair to Picard, but it is pretty well attested that Meyer suggest Dorn cameo as Worf and had to be told the new show was set the better part of a century after the movie series.

 

[publiusr]

I've never heard of any of that. That would have made zero sense to have the entire crew of the Enterprise-D as cameos at the end of the movie, even if it had worked out chronological-wise. That sounds more like someone taking the scene out of context to justify his fan theory.

I seem to remember Picard in a TOS uniform, with Kirk standing next to Riker…IDW?

 

[Dukhat]

The people who make the shows and movies aren't necessarily fans who were closely following TNG (and some people don't have a strong sense for the aesthetics involved and don't really see the difference between the various Enterprises and uniforms). I wasn't able to find a source for the idea being bandied about of Kirk literally handing over the chair to Picard, but it is pretty well attested that Meyer suggest Dorn cameo as Worf and had to be told the new show was set the better part of a century after the movie series.

I had a feeling we were talking about Meyer. Here’s the thing: this wasn’t the first time Meyer was hired for a Star Trek project where he wasn’t knowledgeable about past Trek series. He’s very much an ‘I’m going to do what I want; I don’t care about past stuff or what its fans think’ kind of guy. And while I tend to agree with his approach, that’s another topic. For this conversation, I highly doubt that the conversation you linked to went any farther than Meyer simply being told that Michael Dorn shouldn’t be playing TNG Worf, not that there was ever any plan to have Kirk hand the keys to the Enterprise to Picard and Co.

 

[Riley]

That's a tough one. I really can't see any justification at all for Starfleet retiring a Constitution class starship that was only a few years old, even if it was damaged in the fight with Chang's BoP. At least with the ship possibly being older, it would make more sense. Until PIC, there was a theory that the new Enterprise-A was recommissioned under a new name and registry once the B was commissioned, but the implication in PIC was that it was immediately sent to the Museum, and that's where it stayed.



The line was clearly meant to foreshadow the TNG crew, and not some interim crew for the A.

I agree that it seems like a stretch, but I think the most logical solution is that the ship was retired along with the "mothballing" of the fleet that was suggested earlier in the film. The CNC said that "our exploration and scientific programs would be unaffected." It seems to me that Kirk and his crew weren't doing much of either types of missions before TUC, so the Enterprise-A might have been used only for diplomatic or flagship purposes. Some have also suggested that Kirk and his ship were seen as "symbols of the past" when the UFP was at war with the Klingons, so that could also be a factor.

As for the line foreshadowing the TNG crew, I know that was the purpose, but an interim crew using the Enterprise for one mission could have been fodder for a comic or novel.

 

[Henoch]

I agree that it seems like a stretch, but I think the most logical solution is that the ship was retired along with the "mothballing" of the fleet that was suggested earlier in the film. The CNC said that "our exploration and scientific programs would be unaffected." It seems to me that Kirk and his crew weren't doing much of either types of missions before TUC

It appears that Starfleet wasn't pushing the exploration of on boundaries of unknown space anymore probably since Starfleet has expanded out so far that simply getting to the boundary takes too long. Rather, the Excelsior (which I assume to be one the Starfleet's premier starships) is finishing up a three year mission to study/map gaseous anomalies; what a letdown , this is not "space the final frontier, to explore new planets and civilizations, to bold go...". At the start of the movie, I assume the Enterprise is doing the exact same mission since they have the same gaseous anomaly mapping equipment on board and are close to standing down in two months (about to finish their mission the same as the Excelsior).

These two examples are evidence that Starfleet really doesn't have a base mission anymore aside from countering the Klingons at the moment. If that "threat" goes away plus little-to-no exploring deep unknown space, then Starfleet can't justify it's large fleet of ships, so, mothballing will be the plan in the future after the movie. Starfleet will try to muster limited deep space exploration missions occasionally such as the Stargazer, but it'll take ~+65 years with new faster and longer mission ships (i.e. Galaxy Class ships) to get the technology make exploration of deep unknown space feasible again. YMMV

 

[DarrenTR1970]

I posted my thoughts on this in another thread a few months ago and I’m going to repost it here, with some updated speculation.

I've always figured that Enterprise–A was going to be an Excelsior–class vessel and that the Enterprise was going to be retired whether Khan's attack happened or not.

Maybe, other Constitution–class ships were starting to be pulled from service in anticipation of being replaced by the Excelsior–class.

The Enterprise–A was already probably under construction alongside other Excelsior–class hulls when Scotty's sabotage of the Excelsior brought the program to a temporary halt and the hulls were laid up and construction suspended while everything was re–evaluated, necessitating some of the Constitution's being kept in service past their planned retirement date.

Then the 'Whale Probe' crisis happened, and Kirk and company managed to save Earth. We (the audience) aren’t told how much time passes between the Bounty crashing into San Francisco Bay and the trial that exonerates Kirk and his crew. But it must be enough time for Earth to recover, Starfleet and the Federation to come to the decision to reward Kirk with a new ship and have a ship ready for service once the trial was over. We don’t even know how much time passes between the end of the trial and Kirk and company arriving at Spacedock and boarding Enterprise–A. It could be weeks; it could be months.

With no Excelsior–class Enterprise–A ready for launch, Starfleet pulled a Constitution–class vessel out of mothballs (possibly the Yorktown), did a quick upgrade, installed some new systems, slapped 'Enterprise–A' on the hull and called it "good".

If the Enterprise–A was the renamed Yorktown, then it is possible that the Yorktown was contemporary with the original Enterprise in that it was one of the ‘twelve like her’ in Starfleet, launched sometime between 2245 and 2250, and therefore was already an old spaceframe with some structural issues despite being completely modernized.

The ship was never meant to be more than a "stop–gap" until the Excelsior–class was in full production and Enterprise–A, now rechristened 'B', was ready for launch.

There is precedent in Naval history where the name of a ship in active service is renamed and the name transferred to another ship under construction. The World War I British seaplane tender Ark Royal was renamed Pegasus and the name Ark Royal given to a carrier under construction. The Pegasus remained in service throughout World War II until being placed in reserve towards the end of the war. The US escort carrier Midway was renamed St. Lo and the name given to the first of the large attack carriers under construction at the time. The St. Lo was lost at the Battle Off Samar in 1944. The Midway currently is a museum ship docked in San Diego, 80 years after being launched and commissioned.

There's seven years between 2286 and 2293; I doubt Enterprise–B was only the second Excelsior–class ship in service by the time of 'Generations'. (USS Hood being one of the earliest Excelsior's in service in my head cannon.)

The Enterprise–B could have been like the Essex–class carrier Oriskany, which was 85% complete when the war in the Pacific ended and construction on her suspended.

Work on her resumed in 1947 and she was extensively modified/modernized to handle the new jet planes coming into service and she became the prototype for all future Essex–class carrier modernization programs.

The same goes for Enterprise–B. Construction was resumed, and she became a testbed for the enlarged secondary hull and larger impulse engines on the primary hull.

It's more than likely that these modifications weren't as successful as hoped seeing we only saw one other Excelsior, the Lakota, with the same modifications.

Remember, Kirk, at the beginning of ‘The Undiscovered Country’ says that the crew is due to stand down in three months, not Enterprise–A; and Spock wants Valeris to replace him at the end of the current mission. Enterprise–A was probably meant to continue in some fashion after Kirk and the senior officers retired in three months, either as a training vessel, or placed in active reserve status. Then the ship suffered extensive damage during the battle with the Bird–Of–Prey, and Starfleet took the decision to retire the crew and decommission the ship, since the time repairs were completed, Enterprise–B would be ready for launch.

So, the Enterprise–A being retired/decommissioned at the end of the 'Undiscovered Country' make sense if, by that time in 2293, the Excelsior–class was in full production mode and Enterprise–B was in final stages of construction, ready for launch later in the year.​

 

[Riley]

It appears that Starfleet wasn't pushing the exploration of on boundaries of unknown space anymore probably since Starfleet has expanded out so far that simply getting to the boundary takes too long. Rather, the Excelsior (which I assume to be one the Starfleet's premier starships) is finishing up a three year mission to study/map gaseous anomalies; what a letdown , this is not "space the final frontier, to explore new planets and civilizations, to bold go...". At the start of the movie, I assume the Enterprise is doing the exact same mission since they have the same gaseous anomaly mapping equipment on board and are close to standing down in two months (about to finish their mission the same as the Excelsior).

These two examples are evidence that Starfleet really doesn't have a base mission anymore aside from countering the Klingons at the moment. If that "threat" goes away plus little-to-no exploring deep unknown space, then Starfleet can't justify it's large fleet of ships, so, mothballing will be the plan in the future after the movie. Starfleet will try to muster limited deep space exploration missions occasionally such as the Stargazer, but it'll take ~+65 years with new faster and longer mission ships (i.e. Galaxy Class ships) to get the technology make exploration of deep unknown space feasible again. YMMV

Your reasoning makes sense and I think you're probably right, but I don't like the idea that Starfleet became so militant in the movie era. I know it's probably not a popular opinion, but as much as I love TWOK, it set a tone that diminished the "Trek" aspect of Star Trek. Among the many reasons I love TMP and TFF is because they feel like TOS episodes that involve exploration and even our main characters reflecting on the human adventure at the end. That said, I still prefer the TOS and TOS film era to everything that follows.