Earth during the Enterprise Time Period
- Thread starter SCE2Aux
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A GIF, when a mov. exists?Cue the music!
Yoooou disgust me.
I'd spit on you, but a Neelix like yourself probably enjoys that.
What do you think UESPA was in the context of Enterprise? I'm still trying to figure out how it differs from Earth Starfleet. The only thing I thought was maybe UESPA was civilian oversight.
Somebody has to coordinate things to make sure all the civilian and Starfleet agencies don't get their wires crossed.
I had come across something that made me think different. In the 23rd century, you have Kirk refer to UESPA as a "mixed service". In the 22nd century, Earth Starfleet is even less military than it would be in the 24th.
Given that there is definitely UESPA and Starfleet under the same command umbrella, I think it's possible that UESPA evolved to be the more militarized arm of Earth's space forces in the ENT era.
It's also possible that UESPA is still in charge of long-range, unmanned missions while Starfleet is the manned arm of the space service. In the 22nd century, they still have limited range, so it might make sense for Earth to be slapping warp drive on unmanned probes and letting them loose in all different directions.
UESPA is an older organization, dating to at least 2096 with the launch of Friendship 1. Starfleet came around in the 2130's... so it might ALSO just be that Starfleet was born of UESPA, which remained a part of the organization, to the point that they might even BE the same thing.
The logo in ENT had the Starfleet Command logo with the two names around the outside. But... rather than reading it was two disparate organizations, it might be a long form more "United Earth Space Probe Agency Starfleet Command"... It's just a long name. It's one organization. What's funny there is that it might even technically have that full name through the 23rd century, but most will colloquially shorten it to "Starfleet".
I've always assume it was an umbrella organization covering all human space activity. Starlfleet, the ECS, Earth Colonies and everything else.
It's an answer to a question as to which branch of the military the Enterprise operated under.
CHRISTOPHER: Must have taken quite a lot to build a ship like this.
KIRK: There are only twelve like it in the fleet.
CHRISTOPHER: I see. Did the Navy
KIRK: We're a combined service, Captain. Our authority is the United Earth Space Probe Agency.
Okay cool. I've been thinking about trying to do a picture with a bunch of Enterprise era agency people together, like a Starfleet Admiral and Captain, a MACO colonel, an Earth government person, a UESPA person (and I'm throwing in a UESN person). I just keep picturing the UESPA person as someone you'd find in a NASA control room.
UESPA was retconned as being a division of the Earth government, which oversees Starfleet and its operations. And most likely other uniformed services which United Earth may possess, such as the (non-canon) UESN.
As for Kirk's line about Starfleet being a "combined" service, I take that as a reference to Starfleet having both ground troops (i.e. Starfleet Marines) and naval forces (the starship crews).
As for ENT, Earth Starfleet - which is not the same organization as the Federation Starfleet, I might add - explicitly IS not military. They even said so in an episode - Admiral Forrest asks Archer if he has any problem with the military (the MACOs) being on board, and Archer says he has no problem with non-Starfleet personnel.
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In the sense that "United Earth" was retconned as being the Earth government that's true.
The existence of the "Starfleet Marines" under that name is highly speculative (the closest to a possible canon reference uses the "Starfleet Tactical Marine Corps" and that image is generally taken to be a fake), but Starfleet does probably have ground troops of some sort during the era (and at least as a wartime reserve during their "not a military" peacenik era).
That's complicated, at most it's like saying that the Continental Navy is part of the US Navy (it's not legally part of it, but is certainly part of it's history) and also ignores the possibility that UESPA and or the Earth Starfleet still exist has a (semi-)autonomous command within the UFP Starfleet (ala the DC National Guard.
I'd also suggest that if either version of Starfleet are ever "non-military" it's largely in the practical/operational sense (they don't do "military missions" as standard and don't report to a Defense/War Department), but legally the absence of "ground forces"/"combat arms" is the only supportable justification for the assertion.
See above, though certainly they were "non-Starfleet" which could easily be enough to cause issues by itself.
Yup.
Up to about WWII for most major nations, and even to this day, the universal criteria (there are others that are sometimes added) for "doesn't have its own military" is a lack of "ground forces"/"combat arms".
States with No Armed Forces
I get Starfleet or Earth Starfleet not being "military" but I also don't see the point of there being a distinction, when they have weapons strapped to the ships, a military style chain of command and are the one out there doing the fighting. They never call up the Earth Space Army or the Federation Navy to go tangle with the bad guys. I feel like it's more "We're not the military except when we are." Or "Starfleet: We're not just the military."
Perhaps. But I like it.
I view the Starfleet Marines as being just another division. I mean, we have Command, Operations, and Science/Medical...Marines would be just another division. Different uniform color, and of course different ranks, but still Starfleet.
Which raises the question about the Security Department aboard Starships et el.
What exactly are they?
At the worst Star Fleet personnel with extra training, that is the Star Fleet equivalent to SWAT, or actually Marines.
Problem: training may be completely different between ideas. Security - not Shore Patrol, would or may have generalized training to act as a Helm, one second and a medtech, the next.
This is the deeper problem. Kirk and company beaming down. Technically speaking Security should be the first ones down, three with Tricorders active and three with Phasers out and set at stun...kill if hostiles are known to be engaged almost immediately. Science personnel are only to be beamed down if it is found to be relatively safe.
Marines are supposed to be first in. Especially for military engagement situations. Whole different level of purpose.
What exactly are they?
At the worst Star Fleet personnel with extra training, that is the Star Fleet equivalent to SWAT, or actually Marines.
Problem: training may be completely different between ideas. Security - not Shore Patrol, would or may have generalized training to act as a Helm, one second and a medtech, the next.
This is the deeper problem. Kirk and company beaming down. Technically speaking Security should be the first ones down, three with Tricorders active and three with Phasers out and set at stun...kill if hostiles are known to be engaged almost immediately. Science personnel are only to be beamed down if it is found to be relatively safe.
Marines are supposed to be first in. Especially for military engagement situations. Whole different level of purpose.
Well, that depends what you mean by "Starfleet Marines", because that term can be used to describe at least two distinct types of organisation, one of which Starfleet definitely has, and the other... it probably has during wartime, but possibly not as a "standing force" most of time.
The classical "Age of Sail" Marines were Ship's Security (MAA/Security Reaction Force/Naval Security Forces) and Boarding Parties (VBSS Teams mostly "Armory" ratings) and were also something of a precursor of "special operations forces" (SEALs, RM Commandos). This role is principally covered by the command's Security Department which may at times by co-located with the Armory/Tactical Department, but specialist units may also exist (Jeri Taylor's SI Rangers, SNW/LD's "Starfleet Special Forces").
The modern United States Marines are a very different thing for the most part, and while I suspect they exist within Starfleet, they are unlikely to be available as a matter of course for the most part (though reserve units might be staged at key hubs in anticipation of major sustained conflict.
Depends on which type.
The first type would wear whatever uniform colour Security wears, when they're "in standard uniform" which could be fairly rare, though possibly with a different badge/insignia.
The second type... well navy "Command" officers IRL are considered "warfare officers", so logically if they are part of Starfleet rather than being a separate organisation (or at least separate from the "Starship Service" but still answerable to Starfleet Command), then I'd expect them to wear the same colour as Command Senior Staff (CO, XO), but again perhaps with a different badge/insignia.
Starfleet Marines would be Security ideally.
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