Chase Masterson speaks candidly about DS9 and Catsuits
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JM1776 said:
Still, there's "form-fitting," and then there's religion revealing.
It is acceptable within the bounds of professionalism to wear attire that flatters, or even to a certain extent accentuates, the figure. That which exposes, enhances or otherwise unnecessarily draws attention to it is a step or two beyond propriety.
Oooh, "professionalism", "propriety"? If the message of "Star Trek" had ever become "let's be reserved and proper", I'd have dumped it in a nanosecond, before it deadened my soul. It's about openness and freedom, and how this doesn't have to get it in the way of the group pulling together in a disciplined way to save each other's lives, and accomplish necessary goals.
"Flatters" and "unnecessary" are entirely subjective.
7 of 9 you could make a special case of, you know, because when a costume actually goes up an actress's behind, one can definitely say there's possible sexism at work, or something. I defend it, but I can see the criticisms.
Before that.... the rather silly prejudicial term "catsuit" distorts the truth. Costumes are denounced as "catsuits" when a two-piece costume, you know, slacks and top that were similarly form-fitting, wouldn't have been criticized. The "catsuit" has become a sort of visual/costume cliche now, something assumed to be sexist, when we may just be talking about single-piece clothing. Which I like. They came up with a lot of nice designs for them over the years, on men and women. And no, they don't have to go up anything....
I'll die before I'll live in a 24th century where everyone's in baggy black overalls, and doesn't dress in a more 'alive' way than that. Literally....
I love Kira in her jumpsuit. The difference between her and 7 is that 7 has different proportions. So, she's going to look different. I also love that Mulgrew never gave in to whatever pressures were on her to emphasize her 'characteristics".
In addition, Kes was working alone in the arboretum/hydroponics gardens, or in sickbay as a medic/nurse/intern---an entirely different set of responsibilities than Seven.
[Sighs.]
Having the costuming decisions make sense in the context of the setting hardly constitutes an attempt to deaden your "soul."
But it's not about inappropriate permissiveness and titillation. I enjoy an Orion slave girl or alien babe (and "that dress she's not wearing") as much as the next guy. I'm perfectly willing and eager to drool over Kira, Torres, Dax et al., when they've let their hair down and slipped into something more comfortable---off duty. Military utility uniforms (or the attire of civilians working in a military setting), however, are not supposed to shout, "Look at me! I'm a hottie!" "Openness and freedom" of the sort you're endorsing are all well and good---when exercised appropriately.
I'm sure you'd like to think so, because it supports your point, but ... no. There are standards to military dress, and they make perfect sense. These will not disappear in the 23rd and 24th centuries, so long as people need to focus on their work as opposed to the camel toe on the wench/dude next to them.
You'd have to add T'Pol to that exception, then, since she had some outfits that rivaled Seven's in their ... revelatory ... qualities.
And I can better defend the condemnation of catsuits on the bridge, though I understand the ... affection for them. :thumbsup:
One person's "silly prejudicial" is another's "appropriately descriptive."
And calling both Kira's attire and Seven's "jumpsuits," as if there's no difference of emphasis, degree or appropriateness, is far more disingenuous than distinguishing between them by using the term "catsuit" for the latter.
False dilemma. If you're in a military organization, while on duty you dress not to emphasize yourself as an individual, but to impress those who see you with your professionalism, adherence to convention, and discipline ... and I don't mean the kind of discipline imposed by women named Ilsa.
Perhaps that's because Kira's is a jumpsuit. It doesn't call attention to her, or itself. It's functional and flattering, without being obvious or vulgar---unlike the costumes in dispute.
It's also composed of different materials, is not an iridescent attention-grabbing color, and doesn't cram her into a particular shape/provide a constant wedgie. It's a matter of degree, perhaps ... but "cool" and "hot" are two entirely different temperatures, now aren't they?
The fact that Kira's uniform is rarely (if ever) categorized as a "catsuit" speaks to the fact that, like it or not, admit it or not, it's viewed/perceived differently---which proves the point.
If you're implying, or worse, explicitly stating, that there's no essential difference between the attire of the Bajoran militia and that of T'Pol and/or Seven, well ... we should perhaps agree to disagree, for never the twain shall meet.
At last, something upon which we're agreed.
I have to agree with everything Chase Masterson says.
Let me make myself clear, I think Star Trek has been graced with some fantastic actresses over the years, and Jeri Ryan is a clear standout for her portrayal of Seven of Nine on Voyager.
Miss Ryan is a beautiful woman, but the catsuits that she was made to wear were ridiculous and demeaning. It was almost comical to see her in such clothing, despite some of her brilliant performances. Seeing Miss Ryan is 'Relativity' and wearing an ordinary Starfleet uniform was a great thing.
It was a similar story with T'Pol and the numerous decon sequences in Enterprise.
I like seeing beautiful women in Trek, but not wearing such ridiculous clothing or engaging in crass scenes as the decon sequences in Enterprise.
Let me make myself clear, I think Star Trek has been graced with some fantastic actresses over the years, and Jeri Ryan is a clear standout for her portrayal of Seven of Nine on Voyager.
Miss Ryan is a beautiful woman, but the catsuits that she was made to wear were ridiculous and demeaning. It was almost comical to see her in such clothing, despite some of her brilliant performances. Seeing Miss Ryan is 'Relativity' and wearing an ordinary Starfleet uniform was a great thing.
It was a similar story with T'Pol and the numerous decon sequences in Enterprise.
I like seeing beautiful women in Trek, but not wearing such ridiculous clothing or engaging in crass scenes as the decon sequences in Enterprise.
I'm just going to let my original remarks stand, except:
"The fact that Kira's uniform is rarely (if ever) categorized as a "catsuit" speaks to the fact that, like it or not, admit it or not, it's viewed/perceived differently---which proves the point."
I was pointing out that Kira's is perceived differently, but was saying it's hypocritical. I don't view other people's opinions as proof of anything. Do you agree with the majority on everything? It's a stretchy, form-fitting garment that would be criticized if NV's proportions were different.
Many of Seven's suits were dark, and only one was shiny or attention-getting in color as you talk about... the original silver suit, which was ditched after about three episodes.
If fandom does distinguish between Kira's suit (I'm talking season four on, realize... from "The Visitor" on) and Seven's, then does it also accept all the one-piece suits on Next Gen, etc, over the years? Kes's purple (?) suit in season three can't count as different from Kira's. Come to think, T'Pol's 1st season suit looked something like wool... form-fitting but fairly thick.
What if Seven had had a less extreme suit, a one-piece suit that didn't attempt to make her like naked while clothed, which I already admitted they were doing in her case.... what if it was merely form-fitting in the way you feel Kira's was?
Anyway, I've just decided: never argue with the propriety police. They'll just give you a ticket.
"The fact that Kira's uniform is rarely (if ever) categorized as a "catsuit" speaks to the fact that, like it or not, admit it or not, it's viewed/perceived differently---which proves the point."
I was pointing out that Kira's is perceived differently, but was saying it's hypocritical. I don't view other people's opinions as proof of anything. Do you agree with the majority on everything? It's a stretchy, form-fitting garment that would be criticized if NV's proportions were different.
Many of Seven's suits were dark, and only one was shiny or attention-getting in color as you talk about... the original silver suit, which was ditched after about three episodes.
If fandom does distinguish between Kira's suit (I'm talking season four on, realize... from "The Visitor" on) and Seven's, then does it also accept all the one-piece suits on Next Gen, etc, over the years? Kes's purple (?) suit in season three can't count as different from Kira's. Come to think, T'Pol's 1st season suit looked something like wool... form-fitting but fairly thick.
What if Seven had had a less extreme suit, a one-piece suit that didn't attempt to make her like naked while clothed, which I already admitted they were doing in her case.... what if it was merely form-fitting in the way you feel Kira's was?
Anyway, I've just decided: never argue with the propriety police. They'll just give you a ticket.
I enjoyed those three sentences. They added a lot to the dialogue.
When you run a red light (directly into a red-light district), the cops have every right to issue a citation.
Since you didn't really add anything of substance that needs to be refuted, I'll also allow my previous responses to speak for themselves.
Personally, I see a big difference between the uniform given Jeri Ryan and the uniform given Nana Visitor.
Jeri's uniforms where clearly MADE to emphasize her breasts and make them poke out. They weren't just form-fitting - they were skin tight and form DEFINING. And they were constructed in a way that actually caused her breasts to stick out even more than they already did.
Maybe some of you guys can't see this...but women who understand how various of our undergarments work...and how some give you a different shape than others, can easily see that the way Seven's uniforms were constructed did more than just fit her existing form (like Kira's did) - they actually intentionally accentuated her breasts, pushing them up and out.
This is why they fit so snugly UNDERNEATH her breasts..whereas Kira's uniforms never did this.
Also, Seven's uniforms clung to her legs all the way down - even to her calf. Kira's did not as below the knee, they stretched out quite tauntly and down into her boots.
Again...form fitting, but not a skin-tight 'catsuit'.
As for T'Pol - I don't think her uniform was the same as Seven's either. I place it midway between Kira and Seven in terms of intentional accentuation of 'assets'.
The thing with T'Pol was not so much her uniform as it was those decon scenes in her undies...and the topless scene as well. THOSE were clearly written to get the target demographic all revved up...and were so utterly blatant in that regard that I was actually embarrassed for Jolene Blalock.
I mean, who wants to be faced with the fact that one of the main reasons you were cast in a part was the size of your tits?
Jeri's uniforms where clearly MADE to emphasize her breasts and make them poke out. They weren't just form-fitting - they were skin tight and form DEFINING. And they were constructed in a way that actually caused her breasts to stick out even more than they already did.
Maybe some of you guys can't see this...but women who understand how various of our undergarments work...and how some give you a different shape than others, can easily see that the way Seven's uniforms were constructed did more than just fit her existing form (like Kira's did) - they actually intentionally accentuated her breasts, pushing them up and out.
This is why they fit so snugly UNDERNEATH her breasts..whereas Kira's uniforms never did this.
Also, Seven's uniforms clung to her legs all the way down - even to her calf. Kira's did not as below the knee, they stretched out quite tauntly and down into her boots.
Again...form fitting, but not a skin-tight 'catsuit'.
As for T'Pol - I don't think her uniform was the same as Seven's either. I place it midway between Kira and Seven in terms of intentional accentuation of 'assets'.
The thing with T'Pol was not so much her uniform as it was those decon scenes in her undies...and the topless scene as well. THOSE were clearly written to get the target demographic all revved up...and were so utterly blatant in that regard that I was actually embarrassed for Jolene Blalock.
I mean, who wants to be faced with the fact that one of the main reasons you were cast in a part was the size of your tits?
PKTrekGirl said:
I mean, who wants to be faced with the fact that one of the main reasons you were cast in a part was the size of your tits?
And Chase wasn't?
KitchenWitch said:
PKTrekGirl said:
I mean, who wants to be faced with the fact that one of the main reasons you were cast in a part was the size of your tits?
And Chase wasn't?
Oh...I didn't say that Chase wasn't. Where did I say that?
Off topic but tangentially related: A friend of a friend is a Hollywood casting director, and was responsible during much of the selection process for The Rocketeer. Evidently the character description of the part for which Jennifer Connelly was cast read thus: "Beautiful young female brunette ... acting ability optional ... but must have enormous breasts."
Considering Quark's comments, well ... I think we have to concede that KitchenWitch is right:
"He needs a woman with body and brains."
"I have brains!"
"Sure you do, honey. That's why I hired you. Now eat up and then take those brains back to the dabo wheel where the customers can get a good long look at them."
Chase is obviously pretty sharp. Leeta? Well ... let's just say we could have a lively debate on that subject.
Considering Quark's comments, well ... I think we have to concede that KitchenWitch is right:
"He needs a woman with body and brains."
"I have brains!"
"Sure you do, honey. That's why I hired you. Now eat up and then take those brains back to the dabo wheel where the customers can get a good long look at them."
Chase is obviously pretty sharp. Leeta? Well ... let's just say we could have a lively debate on that subject.
Edit: replying to PKTrekGirl:
Well, this is the thread that began with Chase's explanation on how she *wasn't* playing a character written as catering to the LCD, but Jeri and Jolene were playing characters written as such...
I'm still trying to figure out where Seven was *written* as catering to the LCD, but Leeta wasn't, but I see a lot of people here agreeing with Chase, so...
I guess I thought you were, too.
Well, this is the thread that began with Chase's explanation on how she *wasn't* playing a character written as catering to the LCD, but Jeri and Jolene were playing characters written as such...
I'm still trying to figure out where Seven was *written* as catering to the LCD, but Leeta wasn't, but I see a lot of people here agreeing with Chase, so...
I guess I thought you were, too.
Well, I think even Chase would admit that her boobs were the original reason she was hired. It seems to imply that in the article, in fact.
I think Chase's point was that her's was a secondary character which actually ended up getting alot of real character development, boobs or no boobs.
And the fact that a SECONDARY character which was brought on to be a one-dimensional dabo girl ended up getting so much development IS pretty impressive. They made something out of Leeta, even though she was not intended to be anything but temporary eye-candy.
I think Chase's point was that her's was a secondary character which actually ended up getting alot of real character development, boobs or no boobs.
And the fact that a SECONDARY character which was brought on to be a one-dimensional dabo girl ended up getting so much development IS pretty impressive. They made something out of Leeta, even though she was not intended to be anything but temporary eye-candy.
True.
Thing is, they made something out of Seven, too--and from the very beginning. She was never written as only T&A.
Unfortunately, Chase doesn't recognize *that*.
But Seven was NEVER intended to to a secondary character.
THAT is the difference.
Leeta exceeded what she was originally intended to be. Seven did not.
Can you not see the difference between a secondary and primary character? And how much more development a primary character SHOULD have had?
Can you not see that what was originally expected out of Leeta was significantly LESS than what was expected out of Seven? And that Leeta exceeded what she was originally intended to be?
Once again, could you *please* give me examples of where Seven was written as pure T&A. Please show how Seven didn't exceed that.
Because I thought she grew a great deal in four years--frankly, I thought her arc was one of the best-written in VOY--and other than her costuming, was *never* simply T&A.
Yes, even though I'm legally blind, I am not stupid. I see character growth, too. Although my lousy vision might make me less distracted by the catsuit and less inclined to focus on it.
Where we differ is a matter of *opinion*. So if I don't see it exactly as you do, it's not an issue of my intelligence, but a different take on things.
I'd need examples of Seven's bimbo-ness and how she didn't grow past it to convince me of your argument.
Then why did you say this?:
The above very clearly implies that you see the two characters as the equivalent of each other - that fans should have had the same expectations from both characters.
But that is a false assumption, because one was a SECONDARY character and one was a PRIMARY character.
The above very clearly implies that you see the two characters as the equivalent of each other - that fans should have had the same expectations from both characters.
But that is a false assumption, because one was a SECONDARY character and one was a PRIMARY character.
Because Chase said that Seven was written to appeal to the LCD, and my contention is that she was never written to appeal to the LCD.
Apparently, you disagree, because you claim that Seven didn't live up to expectations.
But you've given me nothing to back that up, except your astonishment that I don't see the character the same way you do.
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