Artificial Gravity in TREK
- Thread starter Wingsley
- Start date
In TNG: "The Neutral Zone" we see a 21st century cryo satellite which has artificial gravity. Either Cochran has it, or it was invented not long after. Botany Bay also has it in TOS, and that is a very late 20th century ship, or at least pre-warp flight early 21st century ship.
Actually, even the cryosat for the corpses appeared to date from the late 20th century - or at least that's how Crusher narrowed down the "fad" of freezing dead people, and that's when the trio actually died. And the Sonny character confirms that the deal was to freeze them in space specifically, so they didn't wait on Earth for several decades for the satellite to be built, they got there straight away after death.
It may be that AG was invented by the Augments and never fully understood by anybody else, so the conclusion of the Eugenics Wars left Earth lacking in the ability to build more AG devices. OTOH, there's that TAS backstory from "The Slaver Weapon" that says AG came from a Slaver stasis box. Perhaps that box was found on Earth or one of the places Earthlings could reach in the 1980s (Moon, Mars, Venus, 'roids)? And perhaps that box is what drew the Kzinti to Earth some time later...
Yet we must accept that at least Vulcans had AG long before Earth did (in 1957 at the very latest), so why would Spock in that TAS episode think a later discovery in Earth should be credited for the existence of AG in the Federation? Perhaps the Slaver box was found in antiquity and is responsible for most of the galaxy having AG as of the 2260s - which leaves us wondering if 20th century Earth got its own AG independently of the galaxy, or perhaps stole it from some visitor such as Quark or Captain Braxton...
Timo Saloniemi
It may be that AG was invented by the Augments and never fully understood by anybody else, so the conclusion of the Eugenics Wars left Earth lacking in the ability to build more AG devices. OTOH, there's that TAS backstory from "The Slaver Weapon" that says AG came from a Slaver stasis box. Perhaps that box was found on Earth or one of the places Earthlings could reach in the 1980s (Moon, Mars, Venus, 'roids)? And perhaps that box is what drew the Kzinti to Earth some time later...
Yet we must accept that at least Vulcans had AG long before Earth did (in 1957 at the very latest), so why would Spock in that TAS episode think a later discovery in Earth should be credited for the existence of AG in the Federation? Perhaps the Slaver box was found in antiquity and is responsible for most of the galaxy having AG as of the 2260s - which leaves us wondering if 20th century Earth got its own AG independently of the galaxy, or perhaps stole it from some visitor such as Quark or Captain Braxton...
Timo Saloniemi
I would say it is a forgone conclusion that if a spacefaring civilization is capable to warp travel, they're already capable of smaller feats such as artificial gravity.
I have to disagree with what others have said here; if you compare the APOLLO 13 re-enactment of Apollo 13's launch (the video I linked previously) with the launch of the Phoenix in FIRST CONTACT, it seems pretty clear that at least some crude form of artificial gravity is at work there. It is very clear that Apollo 13's launch was meant to depict a very stressful and high-g escape from Earth's atmosphere. When Tom Hanks/Captain Lovell announces "roll complete, we are pitching", you can hear the astronauts groaning. And remember how tightly they were strapped in by Gunta and his ground crew... and then when that Saturn V suddenly slowed for stage 1 separation ("get ready for a little jolt, fellas!: ... "that was some little jolt!"), much rougher than what Cochrane, Riker and LaForge endured in their launch. This makes it clear that some kind of crude artificial gravity / inertial dampening is taking place.
I have to disagree with what others have said here; if you compare the APOLLO 13 re-enactment of Apollo 13's launch (the video I linked previously) with the launch of the Phoenix in FIRST CONTACT, it seems pretty clear that at least some crude form of artificial gravity is at work there. It is very clear that Apollo 13's launch was meant to depict a very stressful and high-g escape from Earth's atmosphere. When Tom Hanks/Captain Lovell announces "roll complete, we are pitching", you can hear the astronauts groaning. And remember how tightly they were strapped in by Gunta and his ground crew... and then when that Saturn V suddenly slowed for stage 1 separation ("get ready for a little jolt, fellas!: ... "that was some little jolt!"), much rougher than what Cochrane, Riker and LaForge endured in their launch. This makes it clear that some kind of crude artificial gravity / inertial dampening is taking place.
Or it simply shows that Cochrane's rocket offered a smoother ride. The Saturn V reached four gee for the final parts of first stage ascent, two gee for second stage; the space shuttle did three gee, while smaller rockets like Mercury or Atlas could go past six gee. But there's no actual requirement to do four gee to get to orbit, nor to build rockets that shake as much as the Saturn V. It depends on the performance of your rocket, rather than on generic laws of nature. And if Cochrane's super-duper first stage can lift the giant warp engine to the demonstrated heights and apparent escape trajectory, it might be powerful enough to use a gentle touch on the throttle during ascent. (But that probably wouldn't get it that high in the time allotted by Steppenwolf...)
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
The amount of time it takes for the Phoenix to reach high orbit and the apparent speed (there's no reason at all for a turn) indicates they went through a far greater acceleration than a Saturn V.
That doesn't help with the fact that there is a turn, though. Without a turn, the side window of the Phoenix would not be showing Earth, which was directly behind the craft in a previous shot.
Difficult to say what the turn is for. From the worried looks of Cochrane, and the general shoddiness of construction evident in the craft, I'd surmise the jettisoning of the cover plates and extension of the nacelles caused the craft to spin, and Cochrane is trying to compensate...
As for accelerations, the Saturn V acceleration profile had lots of ups and downs, as the various stages consumed their fuel and got lighter. The single-stage-to-orbit-and-beyond design of the Phoenix might well achieve greater delta-vee at lower peak accelerations.
Although personally I'm sure the rocket did high gee and compensated using futuro-tech, there are ways around that.
Timo Saloniemi
Short bouts of high g we did not see? I still do not see that artificial gravity snd warp drive are invented together.
For all we know, warp is a type of gravity manipulation. How to get to lightspeed? By becoming massless. How to go FTL? Perhaps by having negative mass. And warping of space is what mass does; with AG, there could be extreme warping, with all sorts of magical results.
Then again, X and warp drive might always be "invented" together, for a great many values of X, simply because warp drive results in contact with the interstellar community, and that results in a large number of technologies being introduced to the culture that just discovered warp...
Timo Saloniemi
Then again, X and warp drive might always be "invented" together, for a great many values of X, simply because warp drive results in contact with the interstellar community, and that results in a large number of technologies being introduced to the culture that just discovered warp...
Timo Saloniemi
I wouldn't put too much stock into the Magic Carpet Ride song. Maybe Cochrane played it over again a few times.
I wonder, though, if there was a scientific basis for the music. Like, to keep the three focused on something and stop them from passing out during acceleration.
That thought had crossed my mind as well!
Of course, if the rocket was solely reliant on conventional liquid fuel propulsion (without the benefit of anti-grav) then the entire town would have been incinerated upon lift-off, due to the massive amounts of heat generated by the thrust required.
So something was definitely aiding their rise into the sky.
Of course, if the rocket was solely reliant on conventional liquid fuel propulsion (without the benefit of anti-grav) then the entire town would have been incinerated upon lift-off, due to the massive amounts of heat generated by the thrust required.
So something was definitely aiding their rise into the sky.
As said, USAF probably would have wanted to reduce or contain the heat released at launch by all means available, for purely tactical reasons (the colder the launch, the more difficult it would be to spot). Certain conventional techniques might have been at play there. Or perhaps the new tech introduced here was early forcefields?
But there's another tactical aspect to the observed or implied performance of the rocket. Why would USAF build an ICBM with such an insanely large payload? Was all that performance actually necessary because the thing wasn't an ICBM but more like an IPBM, aimed at translunar threats (which would supposedly be a legion in a world that had missiles that good)? Or was there an all-new type of intercontinental warhead involved, something the size of the very first A-bombs? What futuristic technologies would need to be associated with those two alternatives?
Timo Saloniemi
But there's another tactical aspect to the observed or implied performance of the rocket. Why would USAF build an ICBM with such an insanely large payload? Was all that performance actually necessary because the thing wasn't an ICBM but more like an IPBM, aimed at translunar threats (which would supposedly be a legion in a world that had missiles that good)? Or was there an all-new type of intercontinental warhead involved, something the size of the very first A-bombs? What futuristic technologies would need to be associated with those two alternatives?
Timo Saloniemi
If the rocket is modified heavily then that would explain a lot. We know it was heavily modified considering the second stage is a warp ship.
I wonder why the rocket wasn't used in WWIII
It might have been assigned to Cochrane by the USAF before the war already, back when he had a big organization backing him up. Or at least I hope he had one.
We don't know if the rocket was up-to-date or outdated in the 2050s or 2060s. Nor do we know what its military purpose might have been. Perhaps USAF wanted to launch satellites with it, to quickly replace those shot down by the enemy, and that mission ceased to be relevant pretty early into the war.
Timo Saloniemi
We don't know if the rocket was up-to-date or outdated in the 2050s or 2060s. Nor do we know what its military purpose might have been. Perhaps USAF wanted to launch satellites with it, to quickly replace those shot down by the enemy, and that mission ceased to be relevant pretty early into the war.
Timo Saloniemi
