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A lover defends Voyager

Oh, I think the problem of technobabble is actually a thing most defenders of Voyager get totally wrong. For me it's not so much the fact that they are using technobabble. I don't mind technobabble. It shouldn't be overused, but the simple utilization of technobabble isn't something I have a problem with.

What I have a problem with, though, is when the writers use technobabble to resolve a plot point! That's just lazy writing, because it's always the easiest way out of a situation: Just make up a [technobabble] device that can heal the disease/stop the enemy/solve the problem with the computer. To me Voyager is guilty of using technobabble in this way too much.

This, a thousand times this.

Also it's not really fair to compare the two worse (or close) seasons of both TNG and DS9 with Voyager in its entirety. Specially because one of Voy's weak points was not doing anything new with the Franchise, something which can only being perceived after watching both TNG and DS9.

However I must say that torpedo, crew and shuttle count never really worried me that much (though shuttle crashes became quite a cliche...)
More continuity, specially when it comes to characters is certanly not a bad thing though.

The other major weak point was not really living to it's promise and premise. Many times Voyager is criticized not because of what it was, but because of what it wasn't...

Still, I enjoyed many episodes...but it could have been so much more..
 
Firstly, let me say hello and welcome you to the board. :) While I am a Voyager "hater" I always welcome the discussions that arise from people who have differing opinions from my own so I hope you'll stick around and provide me with a challenge. ;)

I’ve only seen any episodes this year through torrenting, and after having seen all 7 seasons of Voyager, 2 of DS9 and 2 of TNG, I personally found Voyager to be by far the most impressive of the bunch.
Red flag. :p

I'm not saying this in an insulting way, I'm merely stating a fact, but here you admit to speaking from a position of ignorance. You have only seen seasons 1 & 2 of TNG and DS9 and you'll just have to trust me when I say that those seasons are not representative of either show. TNG only really managed to take off in its third season and the golden age of that show was years 3-6. DS9 is the same, the first two seasons are very different from what came later, seasons 3-7 have a very different feel to them and I hope you continue to watch the series and find out why I and many others consider it the greatest Star Trek series. :)

One of the common criticisms I’ve read on my short stay as a lurker on this board is that Voyager lacks continuity. For one thing, this is only partially true, as there’s some aspects of the show that do retain continuity, such as b’Elanna’s and Paris’ relationship, the monthly contact between Star Fleet and Voyager in the later episodes, the existence of the Delta Flier, among other things.
That's not really continuity though, that's just not fucking up. :lol: The reason why people harp on about Voyager's lack of continuity is because DS9 ran concurrent with Voyager for most of its run and DS9 had a great sense of continuity most of the time. DS9 built several stories over the course of its run and things built up to epic confrontations at the end of the series. They dropped the ball on a few ocassions, there can be no denying it, but most of the time they were successful.

I’ve also seen complaints about the implausibility of the sheer amounts of torpedoes and shuttle crafts that Voyager expends. However, there are so many ways to account for this. It is well known that Voyager takes many excursions to nearby planets to replenish on supplies such as dilithium, so that alone generates the opportunity to re-supply on the parts necessary for shuttle crafts and torpedoes. They also acquire items through trade with other civilizations, and of course they have this nifty little thing called a replicator.
The problem with these isn't the practicality of it, it is the fact that it completely undercuts the dramatic purpose of the show. Why should I care about a bunch of characters who rarely appear to be in real danger and who have a magic ship capable of repairing itself from week to week? While this is somewhat true of the other series, the other shows never made a big deal about being alone at the beginning of the series like Voyager did.

Another frequent complaint is about constant technobabble. Personally, I found the technobabble engaging, it just seems to help me immerse in the notion of 24th century space exploration. Perhaps I have some bias seeing as I’m a pure + applied science student, but there is just something refreshing about routinely hearing “plasma conduit”, “nutrino emissions”, “power matrix”, etc… instead of free-talk or laymen explanations of scientific phenomena. Moreover, the babble adds authenticity to B’Elanna’s status as an engineer, and gives us the impression that these space travellers are intellectually sophisticated, not just some space-bound renegades or something.
The ultimate problem I have with technobabble is that it takes time away from real dialogue. When writers wrote the script they didn't write the technobabble parts, they just wrote [tech] and allowed the science advisor to fill in missing dialogue. There is also stories that if the episode ran short they chose to add a technobabble scene to fill the missing time rather than a character scene which would have been far more interesting to me as a viewer. The odd bit of technobabble is fine, too much causes me to lose interest in the drama.

I will concede she is no Picard though Sisco has nothing on her. Sisco doesn’t possess the kind of conviction you’d expect of a Star Fleet captain, and feels very secondary to the whole Bejor-Kardasia conflict. In fact, the only aspect about him I don’t find to be bland is his relationship with his son, and some of the tribulations he faces in the loss of his wife.
Once again, you are speaking from a position of ignorance. Sisko was poorly characterised during the early years of the show, there is no denying that, in fact Avery Brook wanted off the show and only stayed with it because of his contract. But in later seasons his character is allowed to grow and he becomes far more interesting. There is a reason why we refer to him as The Sisko. ;)

What personality evolution do you get out of people like O’Brien, Dax, Quark, Diana Troy, etc?
Watch the shows and you will understand why I completely disagree on this point. There is more character evolution for the minor characters on DS9 than there is for the main cast on Voyager.

Oh, and just for kicks, Voyager has the best cast of minor characters. While TNG has Whoopi Goldberg (lol), and DS9 has Nog and O’Brian’s wife, Voyager has a creepy male Vulcan in Vorak, a sociopath beta-zoid, and a stuttering, awkard, but ultimately brilliant man in Barkley.
Off the top of my head...

TNG: Guinan, Barcley, Ro, O'Brien, Keiko, Ogawa, Alexander, Lwaxana, Q.
DS9: Garak, Ziyal, Dukat, Damar, Weyoun, Female Founder, Winn, Martok, Eddington, Nog, Rom, Leeta, Zek, Ishka, Kassidy, Keiko, Molly, Ross, Vic, Morn.

I’ll definitely concede that Voyager has its flaws. For example, there’s one episode where Paris goes at trans-warp speed, but the issue is never explored again, or how the Borg Civil War suddenly had no impact based on the season finale.
And now you know what people mean by lack of continuity. ;)
 
TC, I don't think most people think the series gets progressively worse after season 4. Not sure where you're getting that from.

There are definitely people here who prefer 1-3 who are very outspoken about it but I don't think they are a majority.

I like 1-7, but for me the show doesn't really get good until 7of9 shows up and you will find many others here who agree with that.
 
I really don't get where this delusion of technobabble-centric storylines in Voyager comes from. Never have, never will.

Because that simply ain't true. :)


I agree with Tachyon, I have watched almost all the Trek episodes from the Original Series in the 60ies through Voyager. I do hate though the idea that if an episode could have been done on NG, it shouldn't have been done on Voyager. I've said this before, if the Producers had wanted to just continue NG they could have done the Dominion war anyway.

Not to mention that many, many episodes made on TNG could have been done on TOS. TOS - TNG - VOY = Coherent package. DS9 was the "odd man out", if someone really wants to observe this matter in that way. Not dissing DS9; still liking it. Even though I like Babylon 5 much more.
 
It's not technobable centered episodes...it's using technobable to solve issues. For example the end of "The Swarm":

"Zomg, swarm approaching!2"!! And we know how tough they are!!"
"Don't worry, reverse the nadyon flux through the tachyon discharger!"

Me and everybody at home:

"Wtf?"

Deus Ex Machina at its a worse...one can't even understand it, unlike a god snapping his fingers..

Now TNG was pratically as bad as VOY in this, and even DS9 resorted to technobable, though much less and usually in the first seasons. If anything, Voyager shouldn't be the only one targeted if one wants to be fair.

I also don't agree with the "It could have been done in TNG" argument. As long as it wasn't, I don't consider it that important. Some of my favourites Voyager episodes could have been done in TNG and some of the worse could only have been done in Voyager. I do think that show should have strived to look less like TNG, repeating stuff is usually not a good thing, though I understand why they did it.

But please don't say that TNG could have done stuff like the Dominion War or even Voyager's trek back to home...because it couldn't! It wasn't the show for it...
 
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@OP

I actually never liked Sisko so it isn't inevitable that you will, I found his acting to be just absolutely horrible. I liked Janeway a great deal more.

As for minor characters OP. You can just see how poorly they treated them when you look at Samantha Wildman for example. Despite being Namoi's mother, she disappears for like 3 seasons. DS9 managed to juggle more than a dozen characters but Voyager couldn't even develop their main cast- with Chakotay and Harry Kim getting the worst deal.

@Tachyon

You can't deny Voyager had so much more technobabble than DS9.
Just look at the episode "Prototype", literally half the episode is B'Ellana saying made up words, what relation can we have to that?? Does showing that she knows about some made up science/technology deepen her character or affect us emotionally anway? No.
 
DS9 was the "odd man out", if someone really wants to observe this matter in that way. Not dissing DS9; still liking it.
Oh, I think I speak on behalf of the majority of Niners when I say that we'd love this characterization. ;)
 
I loved Sisko - loved the over acting actually!! - but he and Jadzia were the only 2 characters I liked in DS9, plus with it being 'different' ie on a space station, huge long arc about the war, it didn't really appeal to me as much as the others, though I can see why others think its the best.

I love Picard too. But I love Janeway even more. Strong woman characters are always the ones I find most appealing. Her human weaknesses only make her more appealing to me, Picard can be a bit too 'god like' sometimes.

I think Voyager is the only trek that I love all the characters, except Seven who I'm warming to gradually (its a case of seeing the strong woman and managing to ignore the catsuit). Unlike a lot of others I like Kim and Neelix, I think in Kim's case he was underused. In TNG I don't really like Riker and he tends to always be there, and the women are a bit wussy.

I liked the way Voyager had episodes similar to TNG - I like that type of format, go to a planet, struggle with something to do with some aliens, get rescued. Then there was the additional fact that they were stranded and trying to get back adding to the interest of it, I still remember how exciting it was to watch Caretaker when it was first aired.

Fabulous Characters, some good stories particularly in Seasons 1, 2, 4 and 5, and the question of whether they'd get back - yes I wish some of it had been written differently and I could go on to pick holes in it, it frustrates me when I see the treatment DS9 for example got in its last season which had magnificent writing, but for me Star Trek didn't come any better than Voyager.
 
@Tachyon

You can't deny Voyager had so much more technobabble than DS9.
Just look at the episode "Prototype", literally half the episode is B'Ellana saying made up words, what relation can we have to that?? Does showing that she knows about some made up science/technology deepen her character or affect us emotionally anway? No.

Prototype - excellent episode. I didn't pay attention to alleged "technobabble" at all. The story was good and I had no difficulties whatsoever to follow the events of it. And we did see the passionate, perhaps a little softer side of B'Elanna in thbat particular episode. In addition, B'Elanna speaking in technical terms is no different than how Dax, for instance, or Miles spoke on DS9. No difference at all.


@Frazzled: Good post. I can co-sign many of your ideas about Voyager. :)
 
Prototype - excellent episode. I didn't pay attention to alleged "technobabble" at all. To story was good and I had no difficulties whatsoever to follow the story. In addition, B'Elanna speaking in technical terms is no different than how Dax, for instance, or Miles spoke on DS9. No difference at all.

You didn't pay attention to the technobabble? You must have been asleep half the episode then because that's all it was.
As for Dax and Miles speaking technobabble- that's mainly only in the earlier seasons, Ron Moore and the team over at DS9 had a rule to lessen meaningless technobabble as much as possible.
 
Welcome to the forum, Vykan12. :)

I don't think there's a lot that I can add to what others have already said - I think the hate for VGR is overestimated by many due to the fact that it is the subject of much criticism. I consider myself a fan, and while it's not my favorite and I certainly have some criticisms of the execution of the show that GodBen has already eloquently addressed, I still like it and find it an enjoyable and entertaining show.

I think one of its strongest aspects are the characters themselves - not necessarily the continuity of them (since it was sometimes rather selective) but the strength of the concepts behind them. And, as the OP points out, the special effects and production quality was pretty good most of the time.

I really don't get where this delusion of technobabble-centric storylines in Voyager comes from. Never have, never will.

Because that simply ain't true. :)

To me, it's not that they are so much technobabble-centric, it's that the technobabble gets overplayed, and that the technobabble often provided a deus ex machina solution where a more character-based resolution would have been more dramatically pleasing. Now, don't get me wrong - I'm a tech head. I own almost every 'Star Trek' technical manual ever published. Still, technobabble should be window-dressing at most.

Consider how simplistic TOS was in explaining (or, rather, not explaining) the science underlying how the ship and other technology worked. They explained just enough that we could have a grasp on it - and, as a result, the show feels stronger for it forty years later because we have an 'empty box' to imagine the tech works however we want in it. Imagine an alternate TOS that was heavy with period technobabble explaining Starfleet computers based on 1960s circuits and punch-cards, or Saturn rocket type engines. It wouldn't date well at all. I fear that latter-day 'Trek' won't age so well because of some of the technobabble which was defined by our 'modern' understanding of science.

I agree with Tachyon, I have watched almost all the Trek episodes from the Original Series in the 60ies through Voyager. I do hate though the idea that if an episode could have been done on NG, it shouldn't have been done on Voyager. I've said this before, if the Producers had wanted to just continue NG they could have done the Dominion war anyway.

Not to mention that many, many episodes made on TNG could have been done on TOS. TOS - TNG - VOY = Coherent package. DS9 was the "odd man out", if someone really wants to observe this matter in that way. Not dissing DS9; still liking it. Even though I like Babylon 5 much more.

The difference to me here, and I know I've touched on it before, is that TNG was a sequel to TOS. It was literally a reincarnation of TOS's original premise, borrowing a lot from the concepts of the aborted 'TOS Phase II' series that was never made, right down to the characters of Riker and Troi from Decker and Ilia, and to an extent Data from the Vulcan Xon. Therefore, TNG was TOS for, literally, another generation, so it only fit with the premise that they tell similar stories. (Direct rehashes, such as 'The Naked Now' were still painful.)

DS9 and VGR were different because they were spinoffs in the 'new' TNG era, rather than being a sequel to a 20-year old show. Each had a unique premise, different from TOS or TNG - the theme was still exploration (and ultimately, via metaphor, exploration of humanity) but DS9 was based around the idea of a remote 'Frontier town' concept and VGR based around the idea of a ship stranded with few resources in a remote, uncharted area of space. That's why individuals such as myself find it 'lazy' to do stories on DS9 or VGR that could have been done on TOS or TNG and therefore invalidate the idea of established a unique premise of each series. There are exceptions with good reason, of course, but generally, if the approach for eithe rDS9 or VGR was to be 'TNG part II' why not just revap TNG and continue it? Why spin off something new at all?
 
Hello, all, count me in as a Voyager fan. I didn't like all the episodes, but loved the show, loved the characters (well, I had mixed feelings about Seven). And I have been a fan of Trek since the 70's - loved TOS, TNG, liked DS9 (not too fond of sullenish Sisko) & thought Enterprise was uneven, but still watched (most of) it. I think the reason I liked Voyager so such was the sense of family, and it seemed like a colorful, interesting show. I remember telling someone what I liked was the interaction of the characters. I didn't mind the technobabble. Maybe I identified with the fact that they weren't always perfect Starfleet officers. I was also an unabashed fan of Cpt. Janeway (altho I preferred it when she was tougher, altho not so much how she was in Equinox). So, call me an imperfect sci-fi fan girl, but even after so many years, Voyager is still one of my favorite TV shows ever, altho I didn't care that much for Endgame (well, the last shot was pretty). GS
 
TC, I don't think most people think the series gets progressively worse after season 4. Not sure where you're getting that from.

I’ve read on a few occasions about people who thought Voyager was decent in seasons 1-4 but dropped the ball afterwards. I’ll find the exact quotes if you don’t believe me.

Also, what compelled me to make this topic was reading that one of the reasons Enterprise was cancelled was because fans were dissapointed with Voyager, and that Enterprise wouldn't have been cancelled if it aired just after DS9.

I loved Sisko - loved the over acting actually!! - but he and Jadzia were the only 2 characters I liked in DS9

How can you not like Odo? IMO he’s one of the most unique characters in all the Star Trek I’ve experienced so far (though many of you are making me aware of how little that is). He has enigmatic qualities having belonged to a race that nobody knows about, he is considered to be an objective onlooker, which raises interesting insights, and he has a nice sense of humour to boot.

In TNG I don't really like Riker and he tends to always be there, and the women are a bit wussy.

Reiker has undeniable charm and a very endearing personality, which alone makes him a pretty special character. The womanizing does seem to go a little too far, though.

===

Anyway, no one addressed my question about Threshold. What makes it so horrendously bad that it is considered one of the worst episodes of all time?
 
My first love though, was TOS. :) I remember seeing re-runs of it when I was six years old and loving Kirk and Spock. :D I grew up watching Bill Shatner act. :D I watched a little TNG as well but didn't catch on as some of the other fans did. I also gave DS9 a chance and loved it until that lesbian episode with Jadzia and that woman who was her wife when she was a man previously. That threw me for a loop and I stopped watching DS9 because of that. It just creeped me out. But I did love Sisko and Nana Visitor's characters. :)
But I loved Voy's cast because they all got along so well together both off screen as well as on screen, whereas TOS cast didn't. They all got irritated @ Bill Shatner sometimes.
 
Oh, I think the problem of technobabble is actually a thing most defenders of Voyager get totally wrong. For me it's not so much the fact that they are using technobabble. I don't mind technobabble. It shouldn't be overused, but the simple utilization of technobabble isn't something I have a problem with.

What I have a problem with, though, is when the writers use technobabble to resolve a plot point! That's just lazy writing, because it's always the easiest way out of a situation: Just make up a [technobabble] device that can heal the disease/stop the enemy/solve the problem with the computer. To me Voyager is guilty of using technobabble in this way too much.
Yeah but TNG had Guinan, which is the same thing.

Don't get me wrong, love Whoopi & the character but come on! She'd walk on, uttered some poetic Yoda gibberish that didn't make sense, the crew would have an epiphany and the problem is solved. "Yesterday's Enterprise"is trash because of it.


Guinan: Something isn't right, this wrong.
Picard: Why?
Guinan: I don't know, it just is.
Picard: Dammit Guinan, I need proof!!!
Guinan: The proof is I'm Guinan and I have spoken!
Picard: Ok, make it so & send them back.

Not to mention the ep. starts off with Guinan seeing the anomaly that sends the Enterprise-C to the past and goes: "No, it can't be..." With no other explaination of what that means. What!?!:wtf:
 
I also gave DS9 a chance and loved it until that lesbian episode with Jadzia and that woman who was her wife when she was a man previously. That threw me for a loop and I stopped watching DS9 because of that. It just creeped me out.
Huh, what was creepy about that? So you're saying you stopped watching Deep Space Nine because of this one episode?
 
I also gave DS9 a chance and loved it until that lesbian episode with Jadzia and that woman who was her wife when she was a man previously. That threw me for a loop and I stopped watching DS9 because of that. It just creeped me out.
Huh, what was creepy about that? So you're saying you stopped watching Deep Space Nine because of this one episode?
It's no different than a straight male not wanting to see two men kiss.

I've heard many people online here openly say they don't mind Trek having a homosexual character, as long as they don't show them being intimate.

Nothing wrong with, some just require baby steps in accepting something they aren't used to.
 
It's no different than a straight male not wanting to see two men kiss.
Which, personally, I find just as questionable. But opinions seem to differ.

I think I can accept that one finds it off-putting. But stopping to watch a series because of it? That's just strange, methinks.
 
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