Garrett Wang

[Oddish]

I'm a Wildman/Gilmore kind of person, myself.

Wildman deserved to receive a hollow pip at the same time Harry did. Maybe a little sooner, since she might have had a bit of seniority before coming to Voyager.

Gilmore probably got reinstated to ensign when she returned to the Alpha Quadrant... right before she and the other Equinox survivors were court martialed for mass murder.

Harry should've been promoted at the end of 'Timeless'.

There were quite a few reasonable opportunities for it. "Night" would have been perfect, of course, but there were others. I described ten at length in this topic's predecessor. Won't reiterate it all here, but if anyone's interested, I can PM over the link.

 

[Lynx]

No.

Besides, it's much cooler to think the majority of that episode is from the perspective of a duplicate Voyager crew.

I think that you have got it wrong there.

When Voyager entered that cloud, a duplicate was created.
Then it was the duplicate which started to shoot proton bursts on the original ship.

Not to mention that I'm not so fond of the idea of a duplicate crew in all the following episodes while the original crew was blown to pieces.

It's more than enough with the duplicate Harry and duplicate Naomi.

That could set the scene for the following event:

Imagine Harry coming rushing into his parents home, bellowing out the old Runaways and Joan Jett song "Cherry Bomb" with the following lyrics:

"HELLO DAD, HELLO MUM, I'M YOUR D-D-D-D-DUPLICATE SON!"

 

[Farscape One]

Imagine Harry coming rushing into his parents home, bellowing out the old Runaways and Joan Jett song "Cherry Bomb" with the following lyrics:

"HELLO DAD, HELLO MUM, I'M YOUR D-D-D-D-DUPLICATE SON!"

Love that!!!


Regarding the previous point, though, it seems the ones who used the proton bursts first is the original ship and crew. Yes, both crews are identical and they would have drawn the same conclusions at pretty much the same time, but think of it like this...

When you put an original document in a copier, the original is already obviously a finished product. The copy is getting made, so it is behind the original, time wise, despite it being an exact duplicate document.

Vidiian-invaded Voyager was the original because it was the finished product. Severely damaged Voyager is the copy because it was slightly behind the other in time.

 

[Oddish]

I think that you have got it wrong there.

When Voyager entered that cloud, a duplicate was created.
Then it was the duplicate which started to shoot proton bursts on the original ship.

Not to mention that I'm not so fond of the idea of a duplicate crew in all the following episodes while the original crew was blown to pieces.

Vidiian-invaded Voyager was the original because it was the finished product. Severely damaged Voyager is the copy because it was slightly behind the other in time.

Guys, guys, guys... why don't we just do it the way they did in "Second Chances"?

RIKER: "Which one of them is real?"
LAFORGE: "That's the thing. Both. You were both materialised from a complete pattern."
CRUSHER: "Up until that moment, you were the same person."

Every crew member on Voyager died, due to decompression [Harry], loss of life support [Naomi], or incineration [everyone else].
Every crew member on Voyager survived, at least that incident.

Here's something sad-funny... apparently, there is a phenomenon in Star Trek called being "Harry Kimmed". Symptoms as follows, taken from RedshirtsAlwaysDie.com...

1. You never have much personal growth as a character

Throughout the seven years on Voyager Harry Kim never had a real romantic interest, nor did he sustain some sort of series-altering issue that would define him. Usually just existing on the bridge and not contributing is another version of this. No promotions, no re-assignments, nothing.

2. Your character needlessly suffers.
If the character is there mostly to suffer in storylines, that’s another Kim-Flag. In Voyager, Kim was the reason the Voyager created bio-weapons to combat Species 8472 after one of them clawed him during an encounter. Kim is also the only remaining member of the original Voyager, or the only member of the original Voyager to die in the episode Deathlock. He was also tortured by a psycho clown in the episode Thaw. Kid dealt with nightmare fuel all series long.

While O’Brien has the phrase, Kim has the experience.

3. Your character doesn't have many interpersonal relationships.
If your character only has one, or fewer, major interpersonal relationships, you’ve been Harry Kimmed.

 

[Farscape One]

Here's something sad-funny... apparently, there is a phenomenon in Star Trek called being "Harry Kimmed". Symptoms as follows, taken from RedshirtsAlwaysDie.com...

1. You never have much personal growth as a character

Throughout the seven years on Voyager Harry Kim never had a real romantic interest, nor did he sustain some sort of series-altering issue that would define him. Usually just existing on the bridge and not contributing is another version of this. No promotions, no re-assignments, nothing.

2. Your character needlessly suffers.
If the character is there mostly to suffer in storylines, that’s another Kim-Flag. In Voyager, Kim was the reason the Voyager created bio-weapons to combat Species 8472 after one of them clawed him during an encounter. Kim is also the only remaining member of the original Voyager, or the only member of the original Voyager to die in the episode Deathlock. He was also tortured by a psycho clown in the episode Thaw. Kid dealt with nightmare fuel all series long.

While O’Brien has the phrase, Kim has the experience.

3. Your character doesn't have many interpersonal relationships.
If your character only has one, or fewer, major interpersonal relationships, you’ve been Harry Kimmed.

So basically, Travis Mayweather.

We can also call it being 'Mayweathered'.

 

[Oddish]

Mayweather meets the first and third criteria, so he was definitely Harry Kimmed. Didn't really seem to suffer more than the others did, though. The writers didn't pay enough attention to him to bother hurting him.

The worst offenders for "characters who should have been promoted" are Harry and Data. But Travis definitely takes the bronze (the fourth name I regularly mention on my unofficial list of shafted characters, Brad Boimler, is alone in the "shouldn't have been demoted" category).

 

[Farscape One]

Mayweather meets the first and third criteria, so he was definitely Harry Kimmed. Didn't really seem to suffer more than the others did, though. The writers didn't pay enough attention to him to bother hurting him.

The worst offenders for "characters who should have been promoted" are Harry and Data. But Travis definitely takes the bronze (the fourth name I regularly mention on my unofficial list of shafted characters, Brad Boimler, is alone in the "shouldn't have been demoted" category).

Mayweather did suffer a lot, though.

"TWO DAYS AND TWO NIGHTS" - hurt due to rock climbing and had a bad reaction to medication.
"DEAD STOP" - plugged into the station.
"SINGULARITY" - was about to be cut open by Phlox.
"THE BREACH" - broke his leg in the descent.

There's more. He seemed to get hurt a slight bit more than the rest of the cast

 

[Oddish]

There's more. He seemed to get hurt a slight bit more than the rest of the cast.

He meets the criteria either way. Hell, he even "died" once.

 

[gweeps]

I think that you have got it wrong there.

When Voyager entered that cloud, a duplicate was created.
Then it was the duplicate which started to shoot proton bursts on the original ship.

No. The metaphor is like a photocopy machine where it still takes a second or two to create the copy. In this case, it was just long enough for the first Voyager, that we don't see until Janeway sees herself exiting the bridge, to initiate the proton bursts. Remember they began just as the about-to-be damaged Voyager was ready to start them? That's because Voyager #2 was behind their counterparts by a fraction of a second.

Anyway, I'm siding with Wang and McNeill on this topic. Harry and Naomi are the only original crew left.

 

[DonIago]

^That's speculative though. There's no evidence that there was any delay factor causing the "duplicate" (if indeed there is a true duplicate) to initiate the proton bursts later.

For all we know, if there really is an original vs. duplicate, and not merely two identical copies, then it was the original that had a lag, perhaps because their Torres walked slightly more slowly to the console.

 

[Oddish]

Maybe they were both copies, and the original was actually thrown clear. Janeway was killed in the Caretaker style ship tumbling, and Chakotay took over as captain, and "to hell with Starfleet doctrine". A few months later, when Voyager found that wormhole with the Ferengi, he shot the ship right through it, and they were home.

 

[DonIago]

Maybe they were both copies, and the original was actually thrown clear. Janeway was killed in the Caretaker style ship tumbling, and Chakotay took over as captain, and "to hell with Starfleet doctrine". A few months later, when Voyager found that wormhole with the Ferengi, he shot the ship right through it, and they were home.

Might have been a crazy and less cynically depressing take on "Course: Oblivion" to have the Voyager that survived this episode discover that there was another Voyager some episodes later. Too bad real-world logistics probably would have prevented that from being more than a one or two episode reunion.

Though I wonder how Our Heroes would feel if they knew that a version of themselves got home...

 

[Lynx]

Love that!!!


Regarding the previous point, though, it seems the ones who used the proton bursts first is the original ship and crew. Yes, both crews are identical and they would have drawn the same conclusions at pretty much the same time, but think of it like this...

When you put an original document in a copier, the original is already obviously a finished product. The copy is getting made, so it is behind the original, time wise, despite it being an exact duplicate document.

Vidiian-invaded Voyager was the original because it was the finished product. Severely damaged Voyager is the copy because it was slightly behind the other in time.

No. The metaphor is like a photocopy machine where it still takes a second or two to create the copy. In this case, it was just long enough for the first Voyager, that we don't see until Janeway sees herself exiting the bridge, to initiate the proton bursts. Remember they began just as the about-to-be damaged Voyager was ready to start them? That's because Voyager #2 was behind their counterparts by a fraction of a second.

Anyway, I'm siding with Wang and McNeill on this topic. Harry and Naomi are the only original crew left.

Sorry, but you got it all wrong.

In the beginning of the episode, we are following the original ship which all of a sudden is heavily bombarded with proton bursts. All of that results in the deaths of Naomi and Harry. Kes also disappears in a rift between the dimensions.

Later on we are introduced to Duplicate Voyager where everything is in order. Duplicate Naomi is alive and so is Duplicate Harry. Duplicate Kes is in sickbay, there we also find Original Kes lying on a bed after having ended up at the duplicate ship. We also learn that the undamaged ship is the one which started firing the proton bursts. But it is still the copy!

Later on, Original Janeway is planning to destroy her badly damaged ship in order to save the duplicate ship and its crew from the attacking Vidiians. But the Vidiians attack the duplicate ship so Duplicate Janeway destroys the ship, however Duplicate Harry is allowed to take Duplicate Naomi over to original Voyager.

Remember that we had a similar situation in Parallax where we were told that sometimes effect can precede cause :

PARIS: Wait a minute. Wait. Wait a minute. Let me get this straight. We were cruising along at warp seven, then we pick up a distress call and moved in to investigate. But now you're saying that the other ship is actually just a reflection of us and that the distress call is actually just the Captain's opening hail. But we picked up the distress call before she sent the hail. How could we have been seeing a reflection of something we hadn't even done yet? Am I making any sense here?

JANEWAY: No, but that's okay. One of the more difficult concepts to grasp in temporal mechanics is that sometimes effect can precede cause. A reaction can be observed before the action which initiated it.. A reaction can be observed before the action which initiated it.

The situation was the same in Deadlock where effect preceded cause!

 

[gweeps]

Sorry, but you got it all wrong.

In the beginning of the episode, we are following the original ship which all of a sudden is heavily bombarded with proton bursts. All of that results in the deaths of Naomi and Harry. Kes also disappears in a rift between the dimensions.

Later on we are introduced to Duplicate Voyager where everything is in order. Duplicate Naomi is alive and so is Duplicate Harry. Duplicate Kes is in sickbay, there we also find Original Kes lying on a bed after having ended up at the duplicate ship. We also learn that the undamaged ship is the one which started firing the proton bursts. But it is still the copy!

Later on, Original Janeway is planning to destroy her badly damaged ship in order to save the duplicate ship and its crew from the attacking Vidiians. But the Vidiians attack the duplicate ship so Duplicate Janeway destroys the ship, however Duplicate Harry is allowed to take Duplicate Naomi over to original Voyager.

Remember that we had a similar situation in Parallax where we were told that sometimes effect can precede cause :

PARIS: Wait a minute. Wait. Wait a minute. Let me get this straight. We were cruising along at warp seven, then we pick up a distress call and moved in to investigate. But now you're saying that the other ship is actually just a reflection of us and that the distress call is actually just the Captain's opening hail. But we picked up the distress call before she sent the hail. How could we have been seeing a reflection of something we hadn't even done yet? Am I making any sense here?

JANEWAY: No, but that's okay. One of the more difficult concepts to grasp in temporal mechanics is that sometimes effect can precede cause. A reaction can be observed before the action which initiated it.. A reaction can be observed before the action which initiated it.

The situation was the same in Deadlock where effect preceded cause!

You might be right. Both stories had Braga involved. But since there's no incontrovertible proof, I'll stick to my theory and you stick with yours. Either way, an entire Voyager crew died. Classic episode.

 

[at Quark's]

Well, if we're talking alternate timelines...
Harry was a captain in Endgame.

... Makes one wonder why Admiral Janeway really wanted to rewrite history?

 

[Oddish]

Either way, an entire Voyager crew, INCLUDING Kim and Wildman, died. Classic episode.

FTFY. You're welcome.

... Makes one wonder why Admiral Janeway really wanted to rewrite history?

So that Harry could get his own command faster, of course.

According to "The Autobiography of Kathryn Janeway" her last act as Voyager's captain was to promote Harry to lieutenant, and he ascended rapidly through the ranks after that. I like to see that as Una McCormack's personal to whoever came up with "somebody gotta be duh ensign".

 

[gweeps]

The more I discuss, the more I second guess myself.

 

[at Quark's]

You might be right. Both stories had Braga involved. But since there's no incontrovertible proof, I'll stick to my theory and you stick with yours. Either way, an entire Voyager crew, minus Kim and Wildman, died. Classic episode.

And on the other hand, an entire Voyager crew, minus Kim and Wildman, survived.

A minor mystery though: the crew that survived was the crew that was undetectable to the Vidiians. Yet in later episodes, they have no trouble interacting with outsiders (including the Vidiians). Did the destruction of the other copy automatically resolve their being out of sync?

 

[gweeps]

Did the destruction of the other copy automatically resolve their being out of sync?

I assume so, yes.

 

[Oddish]

A minor mystery though: the crew that survived was the crew that was undetectable to the Vidiians. Yet in later episodes, they have no trouble interacting with outsiders (including the Vidiians). Did the destruction of the other copy automatically resolve their being out of sync?

I assume so, yes.

Presumably, once they passed out of the spatial phenomenon that split them, they returned to normal space. A little like exiting a multi-level parking garage.

Though I wonder how Our Heroes would feel if they knew that a version of themselves got home...

Here's a scenario...
* In an alternate timeline, instead of talking to Kes about Tuvix, Janeway happens to talk to the EMH.
* This conversation convinces her that splitting him would be a violation of her oath to Starfleet. Tuvix lives.
* Two years later, B'Elanna is stymied about the quantum slipstream drive. Tuvix is listening in and has a "Threshold" style Aha Moment, and offers a solution.
* Voyager zooms home, safely and without further incident.