Jellico/Shelby

[Carpathia86]

Here's a crazy thought while I was re-watching The Best of Both Worlds, last night. What if Shelby had been Jellico's First Officer? How well would the two work together? Would they make a great team? Or would Jellico get pissed because Shelby does things her own way and is usually right?

 

[Sgt_G]

I don't think she would have drug her feet implementing the schedule change her Captain ordered.

 

[The Wormhole]

Or would Jellico get pissed because Shelby does things her own way and is usually right?

Actually, if she were producing results, I think Jellico would be okay with her having an attitude. As long as his orders were still carried out, and we saw nothing to indicate Shelby was particularly insubordinate. Jellico's problem with Riker and the others has more to do with the fact they became whiny bitches and were refusing to do as he ordered.

 

[HugeLobes]

Riker was such a dick to Jellico. Seemed incredibly out of character. Shelby was ambitious, and I think she' have been less rebellious under Jellico.

 

[Carpathia86]

Someone needs to make a fanfic of this.

 

[Makarov]

Shelby did what she thought was best and didn't respect Riker's experience/judgement at all. If you combine that with Jellico's style where he expects the crew to just follows orders exactly, it doesn't seem like they would work well together whenever they disagree on something. She would eventually get into the exact same situation as Riker and get into a shouting match / relieved of duty.

Shelby would have taken her own initiative to implement some improved shift rotation instead of standard 4 shift rotation and Jellico would flip out. Or she would have tried her own idea at dealing with the cardassians and Jellico again would flip out.

 

[Mojochi]

^I don't see it that way at all

Depends on what we're talking about. Jellico's mission from CoC? That mission is hard for everybody, including him, altering the ship's charter, having days/ to prep for a likely mission failure, being thrust into another captain's place or having a new captain thrust upon you. It's not optimal in by any metric.

That said, we see nothing of Shelby that indicates she's a problem officer, or difficult, unlike the way Riker uncharacteristically behaves with Jellico. Take a look at how she acted once she WAS a 1st officer under Riker. All business. I think she'd be fine in a clinch mission like that one with Jellico

As for just being assigned together in general? I'd say we don't really know enough about either of them to know if they'd be a good long term fit. I'd like to think they are, but we don't even really know that the way we see Jellico is the way he normally captains. His whole agenda on the Enterprise may have been entirely mission specific. When a guy outright says he has no time for a "Honeymoon" it indicates that he knows having one would be the best way to begin.

He KNOWS that his stepping in for Picard is bad form. With the difficulty of the mission, it's certain to be met with disgruntlement. He has no choice but to accept that, embrace it, & make the best of what he's been dealt, on short notice. It's a pity the D crew couldn't see it that way. They approach his arrival as though it's supposed to go pleasingly, even though the mission at hand is to prevent war, with no time & a new command dynamic.

That mission is clearly a delegated hardship for everyone. If everyone had just accepted the unpleasantness of it, & just manned up, it wouldn't have gotten so ugly imho. Since none of that is likely how he must relate to his crew on the Cairo, they probably see him in an entirely different light than we see him, because that is probably not something he ever had to do.

So not knowing what kind of captain Jellico normally is, it's hard to say if Shelby is the optimal #1 for him, especially since we also don't know much about how she works as a posted officer either, just as a mission specialist

 

[GNDN18]

Fine, but Shelby wouldn’t last a week with Captain “NME Drill” Zarlo.

Neither would Riker, for that matter. Or Jellico, actually.

Zarlo. He was just so … two dimensional.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Fine, but Shelby wouldn’t last a week with Captain “NME Drill” Zarlo.
View attachment 6504
Neither would Riker, for that matter. Or Jellico, actually.

Zarlo. He was just so … two dimensional.

ARCHER...

APRIL...

PIKE...

KIRK...

and introducing...

ZARLO. The Enterprise captain nobody talks about.

 

[HugeLobes]

Shelby did what she thought was best and didn't respect Riker's experience/judgement at all. If you combine that with Jellico's style where he expects the crew to just follows orders exactly, it doesn't seem like they would work well together whenever they disagree on something. She would eventually get into the exact same situation as Riker and get into a shouting match / relieved of duty.

But Shelby was in competition with Riker and trying to show how well she'd perform. She also assumed he was moving up and probably heard from that Admiral that Riker was looking a little left behind. With Jellico, she'd be directly under him and would know how much he could influence her career.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Actually, if she were producing results, I think Jellico would be okay with her having an attitude. As long as his orders were still carried out, and we saw nothing to indicate Shelby was particularly insubordinate. Jellico's problem with Riker and the others has more to do with the fact they became whiny bitches and were refusing to do as he ordered.

Also, the crew was a little naive on how 3 dimensional the Cardassians were; Jellico knew what they were and he didn't have time to educate them or hold them by their hands for them to get how dangerous and highly intelligent they were. I agree, the crew were acting out of character in those 2 episodes and Troi continued to be irrelevant in the situation. I wouldn't have mind Shelby replacing Troi on the Enterprise because she had a lot to offer.

 

[Tenacity]

^ Of course the writers could have had Troi go through some kind of epiphany moment or life altering event and then have her take on some of the personality traits of someone like Shelby. We did see Troi exhibit more personal ambition when she took the bridge officer's test, an indication that Troi wanted to advance her career beyond what it was up to that point.

I've never felt that any problems with the character of Troi rested solely on the shoulder of the actress, but mostly at the feet of the show's writers. While somewhat inexperienced in the first season, Sirtis showed that she could handle serious acting when given the opportunity, it's just most of the time she wasn't.

Shelby wouldn’t last a week with Captain “NME Drill” Zarlo

Please, Shelby would have shot this guy out of the nearest air lock before the end of their first week on the same ship.

 

[Makarov]

I feel like people defend Jellico's shortcomings way too much IMO. The writers put the scenes like Jellico awkwardly giving Picard his book back for a reason. He was already rubbing everyone the wrong way before the situation even went sideways. From what we can tell by the episode alone, he sucks with people.

He was under pressure but so are all the characters in most situations. All Good Things, Picard's crew followed him to the end in 3 different time periods including one where they just met him. Or that episode where Riker worked his way up in that Klingon crew exchange episode. They adapt to their situation and use all resources to their advantage... Jellico didn't.

And that brings us to Shelby.. there's a good chance they would start things off on the wrong foot as well. All it would take is Shelby assuming Jellico would be more flexible on his orders than he would be

 

[Admiral2]

I feel like people defend Jellico's shortcomings way too much IMO. The writers put the scenes like Jellico awkwardly giving Picard his book back for a reason. He was already rubbing everyone the wrong way before the situation even went sideways. From what we can tell by the episode alone, he sucks with people.

Contrary to popular fiction, having a commander who's also personable is a fringe benefit. It's not a job requirement.

He was under pressure but so are all the characters in most situations. All Good Things, Picard's crew followed him to the end in 3 different time periods including one where they just met him. Or that episode where Riker worked his way up in that Klingon crew exchange episode. They adapt to their situation and use all resources to their advantage... Jellico didn't.

Bull. He accomplished his mission by doing exactly that. His situation was he was given command of an explorer and he needed a warship, so he made it one and accomplished his mission. The only thing he didn't do was baby his crew while he did it.

And that brings us to Shelby.. there's a good chance they would start things off on the wrong foot as well. All it would take is Shelby assuming Jellico would be more flexible on his orders than he would be

Go back and rewatch "Best of Both Worlds." Shelby's problem with Riker in command is pretty much because he was too flexible. Jellico is just the type of commander she'd thrive under, so far from getting off on the wrong foot, Shelby would understand that she doesn't have to like the guy to get things done as his XO, so she would set her mind to doing just that.

 

[Makarov]

Contrary to popular fiction, having a commander who's also personable is a fringe benefit. It's not a job requirement.

This is fiction though, one where we see many many captains and commanders going above and beyond their job requirements, I don't see a reason the audience shouldn't take that into account

Bull. He accomplished his mission by doing exactly that. His situation was he was given command of an explorer and he needed a warship, so he made it one and accomplished his mission. The only thing he didn't do was baby his crew while he did it.

Also inspire, motivate them, or get the best performance out of them. It's not effective to have a warship with crew morale at absolute zero

Go back and rewatch "Best of Both Worlds." Shelby's problem with Riker in command is pretty much because he was too flexible. Jellico is just the type of commander she'd thrive under, so far from getting off on the wrong foot, Shelby would understand that she doesn't have to like the guy to get things done as his XO, so she would set her mind to doing just that.

Shelby beams down before informing Riker, expecting that kind of flexibility. That exact behavior would infuriate Jellico. She goes around chain of command to Picard instead of following chain of command, another thing he wouldn't tolerate at all if she went over his head to Starfleet.

 

[STEPhon IT]

^ Of course the writers could have had Troi go through some kind of epiphany moment or life altering event and then have her take on some of the personality traits of someone like Shelby. We did see Troi exhibit more personal ambition when she took the bridge officer's test, an indication that Troi wanted to advance her career beyond what it was up to that point.

I've never felt that any problems with the character of Troi rested solely on the shoulder of the actress, but mostly at the feet of the show's writers. While somewhat inexperienced in the first season, Sirtis showed that she could handle serious acting when given the opportunity, it's just most of the time she wasn't.Please, Shelby would have shot this guy out of the nearest air lock before the end of their first week on the same ship.

I found Troi's backstory to be fine. It's her rank and her constant episodes of stating the obvious was my issue with her, and quite frankly I didn't find her to be appropriate to be sitting beside two superior intellects on the bridge. I never felt Troi deserved that rank and having her receive numerous chances to become a Commander in one episode "Thine Own Self" appalled me. With a ditsy test like THAT, Worf could've been Commander before Star Trek Generations!!! And Data, my goodness, could've been Captain by the next episode if he took her BS test. Yes, as much as I hated Worf and thought he was a complete idiot, I strongly believe he was smarter than Troi when it came to Bridge Operations and protocol.

I had problems with "Disaster" because the writing is fighting so hard to not make Troi what she truly was--the bimbo of the show, and the highly intelligent Ro Lauren had to be the sacrificial lamb (Obvious, because Worf was playing Doctor inside Ten Forward) to make Troi look better. You're right about Marina Sirtis, she can only deliver the lines which were given to her, and I had found episodes where I thought she shined except on the bridge. "Encounter at Farpoint" and "All Good Things..." were the only episodes I found to be the exception, but when she uses her strengths as a shrink and being a sort of "mother figure" her character was tolerable.

 

[Admiral2]

This is fiction though, one where we see many many captains and commanders going above and beyond their job requirements, I don't see a reason the audience shouldn't take that into account

I'm not saying don't account for it. I'm saying you can't expect every commander you see to be that kind of commander, especially if the commander's Human. That's unrealistic, and the level of realism in a story is the difference between it being science fiction or utter fantasy. Jellico's value to the narrative is that he provides a contrast to the type of commander you reference...and those of us who defend him do so because we find it a welcome contrast.

Also inspire, motivate them, or get the best performance out of them. It's not effective to have a warship with crew morale at absolute zero

True, but sources of morale go beyond the commander being nice. Generals Patton and MacArthur were reportedly utter assholes, but that didn't stop their respective forces from moving metaphorical mountains for them. That's because their morale came from "Beat the enemy and go home to Jenny and apple pie," not, "Gee, my commanding general is so level-headed and upbeat and gregarious."

Shelby beams down before informing Riker, expecting that kind of flexibility. That exact behavior would infuriate Jellico. She goes around chain of command to Picard instead of following chain of command, another thing he wouldn't tolerate at all if she went over his head to Starfleet.

Yes, IF. If you're saying she anticipated Riker's wishes, it's just as likely that she could anticipate Jellicoe's, and not do what he wouldn't want her to do.

 

[The Wormhole]

Shelby did what she thought was best and didn't respect Riker's experience/judgement at all. If you combine that with Jellico's style where he expects the crew to just follows orders exactly, it doesn't seem like they would work well together whenever they disagree on something. She would eventually get into the exact same situation as Riker and get into a shouting match / relieved of duty.

Shelby would have taken her own initiative to implement some improved shift rotation instead of standard 4 shift rotation and Jellico would flip out. Or she would have tried her own idea at dealing with the cardassians and Jellico again would flip out.

Quite the contrary, Shelby's ambitions and desire for a promotion, specifically XO of the Enterprise had a lot to do with the attitude she expressed in TBOBW, particularly towards Riker who she viewed as an obstacle to her own career advancement. Had she been serving under Jellico in Chain of Command she'd probably do her damndest to implement his changes in the shift rotation, personnel reassignments and whatnot. After all, she's interested in making an impression which could help her advance another promotion, and impressing an influential officer like Jellico helps her in that regard.

That may have been part of the problem Riker had. He no longer had any real desire for a promotion and was more or less at the glass ceiling of his career, which likely made him less inclined to implement what he felt would be problematic changes. Plus, after five years of serving on this ship and with this crew a sort of familiarity was taking hold in which Riker was more or less compelled to let them make their case against the changes and after five years under Picard he thought Jellico would be open to discussing orders like Picard would as opposed "Those are your orders. Do it." If anything that crew was becoming complacent by this point, and Jellico was exactly the kick in the ass they all needed.

Nothing Jellico wanted was impossible or undoable, as exemplified by the scenes where Data was following Jellico around explaining exactly how they could implement his changes in time. And the crew of the Enterprise is supposed to be Starfleet's best of the best, but instead they whine about the harsh and strict new captain, even though everyone should have realized there would come a day when they would serve under a new CO, either as a result of getting a transfer themselves, or the fact that they shouldn't have expected Picard to have commanded the Enterprise indefinitely.

 

[Makarov]

Nobody ever seems to consider that maybe Riker was correct and the shift rotation change did cause more problems than it solved, he may have changed his mind had he given him a few seconds on the issue. There's some legitimate reasons for the crew's reaction to Jellico and explaining it away as the crew whining or being out of character is a disservice to that episode IMO.

In the process of defending Jellico the sense that the crew needed discipline is usually exaggerated. The crew blew up a borg cube on earth's doorstep with no Picard in command. They faced imminent war situations all the time when dealing with the romulans and all those episodes where they're dancing around the neutral zone.

Shelby is also shown that she wanted some independence rather than discipline needlessly enforced ( she didn't want to have to check in with Riker before beaming down, she didn't want to stop working when ordered to rest )

 

[Sgt_G]

Here's the transcript:

JELLICO: How many duty watches does the crew stand?
RIKER: We've a standard three shift rotation.
JELLICO: I'd like to change that to four starting tonight. I'd also like to examine the duty roster and the crew evaluations as soon as possible.

.... later ....​

JELLICO: I believe we're scheduled to arrive at the Cardassian border during delta shift. Please inform the delta tactical officer that I want to launch a class five probe just before we drop out of warp.
RIKER: I was actually going to talk to you about delta shift a little later, sir. Right now, gamma shift will be on duty when we arrive and I will tell Lieutenant McDowell about the probe.
JELLICO: Is there a problem with delta shift, Will?
RIKER: There is no delta shift yet, sir. I have spoken to the department heads about changing from three shifts to four, and they assure me it's going to cause us significant personnel problems.
JELLICO: So you have not changed the watch rotation.
RIKER: I was going to explain this to you after the ceremony, sir.
JELLICO: You will tell the department heads that as of now the Enterprise is on a four shift rotation. I don't want to talk about it. Get it done. Now that means delta shift will be due to come on duty in two hours. I expect you to have it fully manned and ready when it does. Is that clear?
RIKER: Yes, sir. If you'll excuse me, sir. Captain.​

Okay, I assure you that a "standard three shift rotation" does not mean there are only three teams. If it did, nobody would get a day off. Rather, there are at least four but more likely five teams that rotate in a four-on/two-off or five-on/two-ff schedule, working 3x8-hour shifts per day. That would require each team to rotate to a different shift each flip: days this week, nights next week, swings the following week, then back to days. I know because I worked such a schedule most of my 26 years in the Air Force.

Indeed, with a ship the size of the Enterprise-E, it's possible that there are six teams working a three-on/three-off no-flip schedule. But let's say for some stupid reason they gave the ship the minumim number of teams: four. There should be enough manpower to run a 4x6-hour duty schedule. There is no "significant personnel problems", at least not in the short term. Jellico originally ordered the change to happen "starting tonight", which was plenty of lead time to make it happen smoothly. Riker drug his feet and thereby cause it to be more of an issue than it needed to be.

The only valid objection Riker and the department heads should have had was "Okay, sir, but we can't keep this up for very long, or you're going to burn the crew out by not giving them time off." And at that point, Jellico would have looked at him and said, "Of course I know that. I'm not stupid. We're gearing up for a crisis, and once that crisis is over, we can go back to a normal duty schedule."

Been there -- done that. More times than I can count. A no-notice switch to 12-hour shifts for two weeks because someone ended up in the hospital sucks, but you do what you have to to get the job done. Going from a 16x5 to a 24x7 shop to support real-world operations sucks, but the bad guys don't stand down for weekends and hollidays.

P.S> Anyone who'se been in the Navy will tell you that a 3x8-hour schedule is not normal for ship-at-sea duty. The standard is a seven-shift rotation of five four-hour shifts plus two two-hour "dog watch" shifts.