I believe you're making an unsupportable assumption. Show any reference that forbids beards in Starfleet to support this idea.
Jellico/Shelby
- Thread starter Carpathia86
- Start date
A policy others on the ship don't follow lol. It makes him look petty when that's all he has to knock her over. It's small & makes him look small
Actually, that's how he opened the scene. "Commander Shelby was just telling me of your concerns about her plan". What probably irked Riker is that while Picard agreed with him somewhat, he also showed support for her plan, & ordered it to be prepped as a backup plan.
Because Riker expects leeway to not follow orders, & be publicly disrespectful to his superior. Shelby only expected leeway to have some autonomy on her mission, before she knew where she stood in the command dynamic. She was brought in as a specialist, an expert, & probably thought it meant she had some freedom to act outside the ship's command structure a little, even if she was mistaken.
For example, she took the liberty of assuming she'd be assigning Enterprise crew to the mission, before Riker corrected her by pointing out that he was assigning crew. It was a mistake on her part. She thought she'd be doing that. Her only transgressions are procedural & debatable. Riker's with Jellico are far more egregious. Why would anyone think they had leeway to disregard a standard order, because they figure they know better & expect to be able to plead the case at a later time? That's not how any of this works.
When? When he offered her his only compliment, backhandedly, by using it to point out that just because he doesn't like her doesn't mean they can't work together? That's passive aggressive imho. Not to mention he, in effect, also suggests that she probably doesn't like him, which she hasn't ever indicated. She's only ever critiqued his career. That doesn't mean she doesn't like him. So what was he really saying? I don't like you, because you remind me of my lost ambition? That's not much of a reason, frankly. The only reason Jellico didn't like Riker was because he was blatantly insubordinate. Whole different situation imho
Ultimately, It breaks down like this. The difference between Riker/Shelby & Jellico/Riker is that Shelby is only angling herself to get Riker's job, openly & legitimately, while maybe somewhat indelicately. Everything she does wrong is just being ambitious. Riker however, is angling himself against Jellico, because he thinks Jellico shouldn't have his job. By that I mean both shouldn't be allowed to assume the job the way he is, & also shouldn't have the job he, Riker, thinks he should've been given, after the fact that he wasn't given it. It's a much more malicious intent imho
No, Jellico was correct, and the Enterprise crew were a bunch of immature whiners. Especially Riker who, if he was properly doing his job, would have been supporting his new CO and ensuring everyone else was doing their jobs. Instead he does not follow his new CO's orders, undermines his new CO's authority and then goes off to his room to sulk until his CO has to come and beg him to do his job. He should have stood a courts-marital, or at least had been permanently relieved of duty and his position of XO, and certainly should have never ever been offered command of a ship of his own.
We do witness many crews throughout trek where the first officers often take a time out to consult with the captain prior to following through with an order.
Riker, based on his experience, would know how it works as a first officer. Based on how captains expect their first officer to act and when it's worth delaying an order to talk about it. He expected more flexibility just like Shelby. And Jellico could have preempted all of this with a simple remark when giving the order, but he overlooked that as well. Maybe Jellico's attitude is not the norm in Starfleet.
I'd consider her intent pretty malicious, the moment he says he's not freeing up the spot for her, she sets out to step on him on her way up the ladder. Riker on the other hand was trying to save his friend from being killed. The main argument where he gets relieved of duty isn't about him trying to rank up and get Jellico's job.
OT ramble but if I was someone who hadn't seen the show and just read these forums I'd have a really warped view of the show. Riker a has-been past his prime who should've been court martialed, Geordie was a creepy loser, Worf a terrible father, Picard an out of touch idealist etc... and I'm just really glad I never viewed the characters of TNG that way that's harsh on all of them
That's not the same as holding off on implementing the order he was given, because he didn't think it should've been given. Riker must have literally said to himself "I'm not doing what that guy just said, because he needs to reconsider." That's not the same as a time out consult. It's saying "He don't get what he wants until I've had my say"
I will admit that at least where his 5 year relationship with Picard is concerned, he has had the luxury of a lot of say, & he might not always have to follow through without exception, but I can't recall him just withholding carrying out an order, because he wanted to have it rescinded. I could be wrong on that. I'd have to check the whole series for it.
Actually, he's only ever served as 1st officer for one other captain, on the Hood. So maybe he just had a misstep because he'd grown accustomed to a longstanding trust with Picard, wherein that kind of thing might fly.
No, he expected more say in command, & he didn't get it, & based on how Picard reacts to being present for some of it, it's well within the norm for him to not have that amount of input, that he took for granted with Picard. Maybe it's something you have to build over time with a captain, because it's a trust
Shelby had no such post yet, & was brought in as a mission specialist, & could easily have been under the assumption she'd be in charge of her end of it
So he should have to verbally justify every order he gives, in case some subordinate disagrees?
And maybe Picard's isn't. He certainly didn't think it was completely out of step, how Jellico was commanding. He only mentioned that he'd prefer it if they had a chance to get comfy with the change... which they had no time for
How does she step on him? All she did was just make it known he's in the way... because he is. The admirals, his captain, & his juniors are all needing him to move up. The world don't stop turning just because Will Riker found a comfort zone. That's a stepping stone he's idling on. A couple years working for Picard, & SHE could be a captain. That's probably why Hanson SENT her there.
Was he though? If he was, why do we find him pouting in his room later, instead of doing something about it? If MY friend's life was on the line & I thought my captain was going to let him die, I sure wouldn't be sitting in my room with my trombone, & neither would Jim Kirk. He'd literally steal a starship, & wreck it, consequences be damned, & so would I.
No, it's about him thinking Jellico shouldn't have the job at all. Plus, he did remark to Nechayev about the fact that he'd been passed over for it. Sour grapes + less power = Sad Willy lol
It's just an assumption though. All he said was he wanted to bring up the issues. We don't know what the issues were though, and we don't know he totally wanted the order rescinded. He might have had an alternative we never heard. We have 7 tv series and many seasons of first officers stopping to discuss with their captains when issues come up.
Picard seemed totally taken aback by it to the point where he had to say a few words defending Riker. They throw in that scene where Jellico gives his book back to show he rubs Picard the wrong way as well.
Wouldn't take much effort to say one sentence to Riker or even to the entire ship at once to set the tone of his command.
Picard kind of needed Riker there, which we see in that very episode earth needed Riker there in order to counter Locutus. I like to think there's more to serving in Starfleet than just ranking up
If it was a 3-parter and they hadn't come up with the mine plan, I think he probably would have along with some of the other crew members
Worf really is a terrible father. His one year old son just loses his mother and Worf's solution is to send him to live with people the kid's never met. How in the hell can that even be defended as proper parenting?
Those other descriptions are pretty spot on too.
Jellico didn't ask for an alternative. He ordered what he ordered, An alternative would be someone else telling Jellico how it should go instead. In other words, "Your thing? No. This other similar thing, maybe". It's still expecting him to take the order back, after it was given & expected to be carried out
We know Riker took it to the department heads, who objected enough that they decided to not do it, figuring the captain should be convinced otherwise, once Riker could be heard out on it. He's wrongly assuming the XO has a say in the control of everyone. As long as it is not a dangerous or immoral order, he is required to follow it, & then if there are problems, you put them to the captain, & then offer your alternative, unless he could explicitly state why it would be a problem the moment he ordered it, which he did not do, & which is most often what happens when we see a captain order something that there is an objection to. They don't wait until it already should've been implemented & then try to explain themselves.
Staying with the same shift rotation is choosing a course of action. The subordinate doesn't decide the course of action. Lt. CMDR Hobson learned that the hard way from Captain Data pretty well too.
That he rubs a few people the wrong way is not an indictment of his ability to command, because it's the situation that rubs the wrong way. There's no way for Jellico to be the good guy here, especially when everyone he is having to deal with would rather not be forced to make hard changes. He was inevitably going to be in a position that met with resistance. If he knows that, then he has two choices, play the part, or undermine his authority. He chose the former, & I probably would too, because it meets the more important concern, making things go according to plan, hurt feelings be damned
Picard defending Riker is understandable too. It's not the best he's ever looked, & we all know him to be a much better officer than the situation is making him appear, but for all intents & purposes, these aren't Picard's officers anymore. So it's actually kind of passive aggressive to be offering advice to someone on how to handle their officers
The effort isn't the issue. The precedent it sets is. It undermines your command if the tone you're setting is that you have to preface every command with "You have to do what I ask here, because etc... etc.. etc...". That's why it's called an order, not a direction. It goes without saying
Riker: "With all due respect sir, you need me, particularly now"
Picard: "Starfleet needs good captains, particularly now"
You know how you make good captains? Train them with good captains, Captain's like Picard, Captain's like Shelby needs in her career. Picard then says "I can't keep you to myself forever" which is a kind way of pointing to the flip side of that issue. We can't just let you rest here, when they need me to do it again with someone else.
That really is an assumption
I never said Riker ought to be court martialed. Just reprimanded for how he behaved with Jellico, & rightfully relieved until he could get with it, like he usually is. He's usually a damn good 1st officer, especially for Picard. He's really out of character in this Jellico situation imho. It was a matter of getting off on the wrong foot with him & staying there. The very 1st thing the man did when he came aboard was illustrated his preparedness, & direct his new subordinate to make a change. It was literally the 1st order he was given by his new captain, & he chose to not do it, or at least postpone it until he could be heard on the matter more. That is a REAL bad 1st impression to be making
I certainly don't think Geordi is a loser, & creepy is a matter of opinion. He isn't creepy imho, just occasionally awkward, & prone to a misstep now & again. I wouldn't call Picard out of touch, but he is certainly an idealist, even among 24th century values, it would seem. Worf a bad father? yeah... kind of bad. Definitely disrespectful of his mother's wishes for him, as half human
The real thing about Jellico is that I admit he's not all that nice or welcoming, & if this change of command were happening under normal circumstances in any optimal way, I'd agree he is unduly unwelcoming, but it isn't happening under optimal circumstances. Quite the contrary. He's dropped in & told that his new crew will be at war in a few days. He doesn't have the luxury of a shakedown, a honeymoon, a grace period etc... where he can offer chances for people to show their talents, or grow trusts with them, the way Picard was given. He has to expect these people to perform as would be required of them in the WORST case scenario, because that's what they're faced with. So this whole "He should've been nicer & given everyone a break" is just out of place for the circumstance imho
True enough, but Kirk could get a little shirty from time to time when his command prerogatives were being met with helpful “suggestions”:
And that’s just the first season.
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Ok so you want some more none Enterprise examples; Sisko, Terrell and Admiral's Leyton & Dougherty.
Theres an assumption that because there are so few Starfleet Officers with beards that it must in against regulations like they are in current day militaries (specific units and operations aside) due to the likes of Scotty and Morrow with moustaches and because McCoy shaved in TMP.
Yes you can argue that most examples are the people who were either given the permission of their CO or were of a rank where they could go outside the rules but it looks more like a kept beard is allowed just not a fashion trend of the era's we see.
What did Crusher call them, something designed to impress as a fashion statement, maybe its simply something many that we see don't want to have to upkeep.
Well he didn't exactly know Worf either, while I agree it was pretty lousy on Worf's part to pass off a son he's just me t under those circumstances you can almost assume Worf's reasoning. Life on a Starship is dangerous especially for the ships Chief of Security, he most likely thought he wouldn't have time to devote to his son where his parents have all the time in the world.
The real failure here is when it comes to Worf's complaint that K'Ehleyr wasn't bringing him up in the Klingon way as she is half human, so what does he go and do? He goes right ahead and sends him to live on Earth with humans.
Always struck me as dumb when he would later on complain about Alexanders lack of in interest and understanding in Klingon culture I would assume because as a child he was so obsessed with it, but then he was an older 6 year old vs Alexander at 1.
I always assumed that it wasn't uniform code, but McCoy shaved in TMP because he was returning to medical practice. It's fairly uncommon for practicing docs to keep a beard that long, & those that do, usually have to cover it like they would their hair in an aseptic situation. It's just more sanitary for patients... It's easier to just shave it
Granted, but if Worf wasn't going to look after Alexander, didn't K'Ehleyr have relatives, either human or Klingon who Alexander did know? To automatically leave him with people he never met immediately after he just lost the only parent he did know is not the best parenting decision one can make at all.
Very true, but then that does imply that for the 18 months or so before he wasn't being a Doctor, I can't see McCoy not practicing or helping people. The beard seems more, for real world reasons, to visually back up that time has gone by and then we reset to the Bones look we knew and loved.
I'd like to think that if any of us found ourselves in that situation we would have done the right thing and requested a transfer or at least a leave of absence.
Obviously they weren't going to do this as it would change the show and didn't have the plan to keep him on the ship FULL of children but thats down to the writers.
Everything else you've said I pretty much agree with, but I wanted to come back to this part of your post.
Speaking from personal experience, every time a new person was brought into the fold of one of my units there was a turnover time where the outgoing NCO or officer briefed the incoming one on personnel issues and how they've dealt with things previously. I know there wasn't any real time for that in this episode, but Jellico was kind of a jerk for blowing Picard off so brusquely. I remember a squadron commander who had a similar attitude toward the colonel he was replacing and his flippancy ended up getting him fired about 1/4 of the way through his tour. With that said, I think the passive-aggressive one in this situation was Jellico as there was no reason for the attitude. That's just my $0.02.
That’s a helpful insight. I think it shows the problems with the compressed timeline forced by even a two-part episode. Another approach might have been for Jellico to have appeared to have taken Picard’s advice to heart, but then later discarding it. Or, if the story had taken place over months instead of days, Jellico’s resistance to a collaborative command might of been more elegantly shown.Everything else you've said I pretty much agree with, but I wanted to come back to this part of your post.
Speaking from personal experience, every time a new person was brought into the fold of one of my units there was a turnover time where the outgoing NCO or officer briefed the incoming one on personnel issues and how they've dealt with things previously. I know there wasn't any real time for that in this episode, but Jellico was kind of a jerk for blowing Picard off so brusquely. I remember a squadron commander who had a similar attitude toward the colonel he was replacing and his flippancy ended up getting him fired about 1/4 of the way through his tour. With that said, I think the passive-aggressive one in this situation was Jellico as there was no reason for the attitude. That's just my $0.02.
Of course, the real issue was the transfer of command. The cards special mission was to be of limited to ration and, historically at least, Riker could’ve assume temporary command. My impression on the first viewing of this episode was that a conspiracy (again) between rogue Starfleet personnel and the Cardassians was being foreshadowed. Fortunately, that was not the case. But at the time, it explained some very strange doings in the set up episode.
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That's a fair point. I can kind of chalk it up to there being a tension to the whole mission, war being imminent & all. War is not something I'd expect Starfleet to be as comfortable with as our militaries are today, at least in the 24th's relative peacetime of TNG. I don't slight Picard for offering his advice anyhow. It's not like he's offering it to a Klingon like Kurn who might kill him for it lolEverything else you've said I pretty much agree with, but I wanted to come back to this part of your post.
Speaking from personal experience, every time a new person was brought into the fold of one of my units there was a turnover time where the outgoing NCO or officer briefed the incoming one on personnel issues and how they've dealt with things previously. I know there wasn't any real time for that in this episode, but Jellico was kind of a jerk for blowing Picard off so brusquely. I remember a squadron commander who had a similar attitude toward the colonel he was replacing and his flippancy ended up getting him fired about 1/4 of the way through his tour. With that said, I think the passive-aggressive one in this situation was Jellico as there was no reason for the attitude. That's just my $0.02.
It's a courtesy, & would only aid in a smoother change, but in this case, if I were Jellico, I could also see that this didn't really play like a debrief, so much as a mild criticism, like he was seeing how the relation was playing out, & wanted to try to correct it? He's pointing out that Will is a better officer than he's getting credit for, or that somehow the command change coming out of left field might have thrown him enough to have made a bad 1st impression... which are both true, but ultimately, if I'm Jellico, I'm thinking "Here's this guy telling me to try things more the way he thinks" etc... & in the end, Jellico didn't get too cranky about it. Just a little "There's the door" treatment lol. I've done similar.
None of that really excuses how Riker let it all affect his attitude though imho
If this change of command had taken place over a period of months before the meat of the mission came to play, I'd expect a new commander to be much more accommodating than Jellico. It's the timeframe that makes me tolerate the curtness, single-mindedness, & lack of compromise that surfaces in these exchanges. He's a man with a mission, not necessarily HIS mission. Why would anyone want to be put into this situation? I'd think it much simpler to just send him & his Cairo crew... but ain't nobody ever heard of the Cairo, on the battle lines between antagonistic worlds, & the impression was what the admiralty wanted. Impress them with the name Enterprise, & the best Cardassian negotiator we got (Which ain't Riker)
That's possible too. It is damn hard to buy the stupidity of sending Picard out there like that. That shit has trap stench all over it. So either they knew that & decided it was worth risking those lives, didn't know it & are just gullible dumbasses, or there's something shady going on. Take your pick
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I didn't have a problem with the way Jellico dealt with Riker, Troi, or the Cardassians. But the way he carried himself during his talk with Picard in the ready room did come across as somewhat unseemly.
Picard is Jellico's equal. One might expect Jellico to conduct himself in a more relaxed manner and probably show camaraderie towards a fellow captain. I can appreciate Jellico's bluntness, but I also thought he could have been more tactful and sympathetic to a colleague.
This is part of what Jellico said to Picard:
"And the chances are you won't be coming back from this mission of yours. I want this ship ready for action and I don't have time to give Will Riker or anyone else a chance. And forgive me for being blunt, but the Enterprise is mine now. Well, here's hoping you beat the odds. Good hunting."
Jellico had already taken over the Enterprise from Picard, and then he all but declared that Picard was a dead man walking. It was almost like adding insult to injury. I can imagine that those words from Jellico might have been off-putting for Picard.
Picard didn't look pleased. I got the impression that he wanted to reply, but he thought better of it and bit his tongue and didn't say anything further. I have to say that Picard handled the situation with dignity.
Picard is Jellico's equal. One might expect Jellico to conduct himself in a more relaxed manner and probably show camaraderie towards a fellow captain. I can appreciate Jellico's bluntness, but I also thought he could have been more tactful and sympathetic to a colleague.
This is part of what Jellico said to Picard:
"And the chances are you won't be coming back from this mission of yours. I want this ship ready for action and I don't have time to give Will Riker or anyone else a chance. And forgive me for being blunt, but the Enterprise is mine now. Well, here's hoping you beat the odds. Good hunting."
Jellico had already taken over the Enterprise from Picard, and then he all but declared that Picard was a dead man walking. It was almost like adding insult to injury. I can imagine that those words from Jellico might have been off-putting for Picard.
Picard didn't look pleased. I got the impression that he wanted to reply, but he thought better of it and bit his tongue and didn't say anything further. I have to say that Picard handled the situation with dignity.
Maybe, but in response to being prodded slightly about how he was handling the Enterprise officers, camaraderie kind of diminishes some, I'd think, enough at least that you might drop the pleasantries, & offer a stark assessment
Or "Won't be coming back" as in captured & tortured as a criminal, which he was, & very nearly didn't come back
See, I kind of think his remark, while certainly blunt, & maybe a bit of a push back for how he'd just been passively advised to lighten up on people, was a dead on assessment of the very situation they'd find themselves in, almost entirely throughout the episode. He knows the writing on the wall, & so should Picard. So how is it impolite to bring that up under such dire circumstances? I think you're doing a guy a favor by pointing out how bad things might get, just in case he's under the impression that things are going to go peachy. Let us be clear, even at the cost of some cordialness, imho
What it comes down to is how much you respect honesty & someone willing to be a little unlikable because of their honesty. See, the episode is deliberately presenting this for the viewer, so to be seen more than one way imho. They expect the initial response for the viewer is to be taken aback by Jellico & the things he says, & not like him, because the viewer has a bias. They root for Picard & his crew every week. Anybody who doesn't line up with them automatically becomes the antagonist, except here.
This episode is unique in a way, because for once the guy we have our issue with ISN'T an antagonist, like a corrupt admiral or a shady alien of the week. He's a hand picked top captain, they put on the Enterprise, just like they did with Picard, or Kirk, or any number of history's others Enterprise captains. There's nothing presented in the episode to suggest he is in any way "The bad guy"
He's on "our" side. He too is a Starfleet hero, albeit, one cut from some different cloth maybe. That's the challenge this episode presents us. Can we get past our bias? See this guy objectively, empathize with him, even though he might not fall in with everyone else, who we routinely identify with.
This isn't just an episode, or story. It's a challenge to the viewer, to not automatically accept that our heroes are infallible, or that they're difficulties must be the fault of the interloper of the week. When you really put yourself in Jellico's shoes & examine what he's being made to do, the situation is less clear cut than he's a jerk, or wrong all the time. Even if he isn't as friendly as they'd like, that doesn't make him wrong, & he might be in a situation that demands a little less nicety.
That's my way of looking at it at least
I see your point.
But I wasn't a biased-in-favor-of-Picard viewer. Picard probably pissed me off more times than not through the run of the series. I liked Jellico from the first time I saw the episode, probably because he was different than Picard.
It was my latest viewing of the episode that, for some reason, had gotten me to be more sympathetic towards Picard in that particular instance. Picard showed a lot class in the way he handled Jellico's remarks and the unsympathetic way Jellico handed over Picard's book.
I suppose a person could interpret the manner in which Jellico handed the book to Picard as "don't let the door hit you on your way out".
It was specifically Jellico's remark, "and the chances are you won't be coming back from this mission of yours", that I thought was problematic. But not what he said about Riker and the other stuff. I am sure Picard already knew the risks of his mission.
Even when bringing up the Riker matter, Picard wasn't pushy. He was respectful and amiable. Picard and Jellico are colleagues, equals. It seemed odd that Jellico wasn't able, or willing, to switch gears and treat his fellow captain with more camaraderie. After all, Picard is not a subordinate like Riker and Troi.
Colleagues often joke with one another even under difficult circumstances. Could Jellico have humored Picard by saying something like, "I will be keeping the center seat warm for you until you return"? But that didn't happened.
Like you wrote, the situation wasn't as clear cut one way or another.
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