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Jellico/Shelby

All this talk about rank above all else and it seems barely even Star Trek we're talking about. This is a sci fi TV show where the main characters routinely disobey, ignore, and bend orders for the sake of adventure/love/friends and whatever else fits the moral of the story.

When you focus on debating Riker's shift rotation issues instead of how Jellico acts it's like you all forgot the many series of much better captains showing way better skills at dealing with this stuff. They all did more than just sticking to minimum job requirements and dishing out orders.
 
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All this talk about rank above all else and it seems barely even Star Trek we're talking about. This is a sci fi TV show where the main characters routinely disobey, ignore, and bend orders for the sake of adventure/love/friends and whatever else fits the moral of the story.

When you focus on debating Riker's shift rotation issues instead of how Jellico acts it's like you all forgot the many series of much better captains showing way better skills at dealing with this stuff. They all did more than just sticking to minimum job requirements and dishing out orders.

The argument isn't about who has a better command style, leadership skills, or personality. That's a different argument. And it's an irrelevant argument in the context of the episode. Starfleet is a semi-military organization that depends upon the chain of command to function, especially in situations where the organization is called upon to defend an entire civilization. You do your job and obey orders or you're in the wrong. Period. Someone being an asshole is irrelevant.

I'm saying lima beans are healthy, and you're saying no, they suck because they taste bad. Ok, but that's not the same argument. Jellico can be a complete ass with a horrific leadership style. That doesn't make Riker's behavior right. You've been talking past and around people who are making the counter-argument for pages now. The issue isn't Jellico's style. In an organization like Starfleet, and in a crisis situation, there's no excuse for what Riker did. It was wrong. Like I said, this isn't some SoCal surfboard company run by 420 dudebros. There's a heirarchy, like there is in most serious, successful businesses and organizations. People get fired or relieved of duty all the time for failing to follow directions or orders...even if the person giving them isn't sensitive and nice. They're not REQUIRED to be sensitive, patient and nice. Nobody is saying they shouldn't be, or that it wouldn't potentially be better if they were...but it's not required. Doing your job is required.

Jellico did his fundamental job. Riker didn't. There's nothing else to it.
 
For one thing it's telling that diehard Jellico fans care so much about Riker's insubordination but are also rooting for Shelby deliberately railing against her own superior officer. This strict adherence to chain of command only seems to apply when it's in defense of Jellico
Because the situation is entirely different. She didn't rail on the guy. She just went about her business under the somewhat mistaken assumption that Riker's position mattered less than he thought it should, because there was a captain, & admiral she was answering to, while being given to understand that she had a wider latitude with her mission specialty... that she maybe didn't even really answer directly to Riker anyhow, that maybe... she was even there to replace his complacent, stagnated butt. All of which were likely the case. Not like the Jellico situation at all, where Riker is being placed under this guy's command from minute one, & not following through with what he asks.
All this talk about rank above all else and it seems barely even Star Trek we're talking about. This is a sci fi TV show where the main characters routinely disobey, ignore, and bend orders for the sake of adventure/love/friends and whatever else fits the moral of the story.
No, they don't routinely do that. The shows/movies do have numerous examples of them doing so, but that does not make it routine, nor commonplace to the internal narrative. I think it is a misrepresentation of the show to say that. Often it is with great pains or sacrifice that those kinds of difficult choices are made. It is specifically those examples that hold weight with us, expressly because they have an overlying code of conduct to begin with.

The oddness of your remark, to me, is that it is somehow comparing Kirk stepping outside his orders, to almost always save lives, or Sisko betraying his own ethics to save billions, to Riker... deciding some new captain shouldn't be telling him what to do, with something as menial as the crew rotation. They should be following some orders, man, or what's the point in putting them in a uniform? & how less significant do orders get, than how many hours in a day some redshirt has to man a console? Not even the same ballpark imho
Then the counter to this is "But he didn't have time for feelings!" I call bullshit on this, since he should use whatever he can to get the job done and in this case that calls for motivating people.
And not just Riker, a good leader would have channeled the crews feelings about losing Picard into action. He misses a lot of opportunities for it that other captains wouldn't...
Your whole argument is that Jellico isn't your ideal example of leadership, so everyone is within their rights to rebel against him. I'm sorry, but that is just not how any of this works. Riker still has orders to follow, even if he doesn't get treated the way he feels inspires him to his fullest potential. lol
 
Then the counter to this is "But he didn't have time for feelings!" I call bullshit on this, since he should use whatever he can to get the job done and in this case that calls for motivating people. Even Data dealt with insubordination better two times on the show.
You mean like when he yelled at his XO on the Sutherland in front of the bridge crew? Granted, that guy was an insubordinate ass who nearly screwed the mission over because of his bigoted feelings about serving under an android, so he's lucky being yelled at was his only real punishment. But if you're going to get all touchy-feely about how a Captain should be friendly and personable, citing a guy who yells at his second in command in public isn't exactly a compelling argument.
All this talk about rank above all else and it seems barely even Star Trek we're talking about. This is a sci fi TV show where the main characters routinely disobey, ignore, and bend orders for the sake of adventure/love/friends and whatever else fits the moral of the story.
That's a simplistic view. Yes, we see characters disobeying orders almost all the time with little to no consequence, but that does not mean that a Captain is in the wrong just because he expects his orders to be obeyed without debate. Indeed, anyone serving on a ship, regardless if it's a military or civilian ship, obeys the Captain's orders without question. To do otherwise is only inviting trouble for themselves.
 
People seem to conveniently forget that Jellico had to deal with a tense, almost warlike situation right off the bat, and that quick results were expected of him. Having to deal with a stubborn ass like Riker, or a patronizing ninny like Deanna was just adding injury to insult (yes I willingly put it that way!). It's like you're asked to run as fast as you can in a race and little monkeys keep jumping on your back!
 
Jellico can be a complete ass with a horrific leadership style. That doesn't make Riker's behavior right. You've been talking past and around people who are making the counter-argument for pages now. The issue isn't Jellico's style.

You say talking around, I say there have been good points made on both sides. And I do appreciate the well written responses even if sometimes I disagree. If we are not welcoming to opposing viewpoints then no one will join in

Very few here are saying he is a complete ass with horrific leadership style, that IS the issue and it's certainly not irrelevant to the episode or the topic of this thread. I am not saying Riker was right, I am saying Jellico also fucked up and that must be considered to have any balanced perspective on that episode. I have even said to take Riker out of the equation for a moment and think of Jellico with the crew aside from that.

They're not REQUIRED to be sensitive, patient and nice. Nobody is saying they shouldn't be, or that it wouldn't potentially be better if they were...but it's not required. Doing your job is required.

Yes Jellico fulfilled his job requirements. Now can we look at the character's actions any further than that, or not? Because there really is more to it than that, especially when you're in a topic about Shelby and Jellico and there's reason to imagine Jellico beyond his conflict with Riker.

Because the situation is entirely different. She didn't rail on the guy. She just went about her business under the somewhat mistaken assumption that Riker's position mattered less than he thought it should, because there was a captain, & admiral she was answering to, while being given to understand that she had a wider latitude with her mission specialty... that she maybe didn't even really answer directly to Riker anyhow, that maybe... she was even there to replace his complacent, stagnated butt.

I don't think going around him to Picard was mistaken assumption, she blatantly started defying the guy after she knew he wanted to stay first officer. She asked him to bring it to Picard, he said no, and she ignored that. Riker's objection to her plan was to keep the ship safe from risk, unlike how people are saying he put ego above the mission. And if we are going to follow rank as we are with Jellico, there is no reason to make an exception there with Shelby/Riker.

It's not a bad argument that she thought she had more leeway due to the borg expert position, but if that were really true she would have brought the plan to Picard straight away instead of bothering asking Riker. She clearly knew he was a step above her IMO.

The oddness of your remark, to me, is that it is somehow comparing Kirk stepping outside his orders, to almost always save lives, or Sisko betraying his own ethics to save billions, to Riker... deciding some new captain shouldn't be telling him what to do, with something as menial as the crew rotation.

Riker was trying to save a life during his biggest confrontation with Jellico though. Jellico clearly didn't like him after that shift rotation issue, but it was still a workable situation until Riker stood up to him to save Picard.

Riker's idea wasn't smart at all since it would have started a war, but many many times in the show they are risking war over 1 person, a lot of times for silly reasons. Remember Picard disobeying Starfleet and almost going to war over a kid's custody? And they fly into the neutral zone all the time risking war.

[Your whole argument is that Jellico isn't your ideal example of leadership, so everyone is within their rights to rebel against him. I'm sorry, but that is just not how any of this works. Riker still has orders to follow, even if he doesn't get treated the way he feels inspires him to his fullest potential. lol

That has never been my argument, they don't have a right to rebel against him. But taken into perspective, there is plenty of reasons to believe Jellico didn't handle the situation all that well.
 
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Yes Jellico fulfilled his job requirements. Now can we look at the character's actions any further than that, or not?
Why should we have to? The issue is the chain of command, & how Riker is not respecting it with jellico. Job requirements IS the subject, & while Shelby maybe falls just a little short of unwavering respect for the chain of command, it's because she's been given to the assumption she'd have some unilateral say in what's being done, but Riker shoots that down... & when he does, she either respects it, or pleads to a higher authority, which is who she was brought there by, mind you.

There is a confusion as to who she must answer to imho. She literally thought Riker was leaving & she's been tasked with a job that involved that, by an admiral who brought her expressly for that reason alone. Riker is the odd man out on this mission, but he does have a position & rank, so he's also not out, & she stumbles around that some. In truth though, he is not necessarily her direct superior in this instance. So she gets some slack in my view. Riker's Jellico situation has none of that. It's clear as day, that he's not interested in having things go that guy's way, which is his primary responsibility on this mission.
It's not a bad argument that she thought she had more leeway due to the borg expert position, but if that were really true she would have brought the plan to Picard straight away instead of bothering asking Riker.
Why? When she thinks they're all on the same page, with the same agenda. She's very surprised when Riker shoots all her plans down. Maybe now, facing total fleet annihilation, is not the time to be playing it safe, as he keeps singing. Riker has rank over her, but he is not in command of this mission. His say is not the final say on this mission, & she's been led to believe she has almost as much pull in that as anyone. He wants to shut her down from that. Maybe she's not wrong, & he's in the way of everything, including himself. It's not like she's muscling in on his job, for him to be tossed aside. They got a damn ship waiting for him. His priorities are all F-ed up imho, if he's worried about his away mission time tables & crew rosters, instead of that
Riker was trying to save a life during his biggest confrontation with Jellico though. Jellico clearly didn't like him after that shift rotation issue, but it was still a workable situation until Riker stood up to him to save Picard.
Riker didn't stand up to save Picard though. If he had, he wouldn't have sat back down next to his trombone, & sulked in his room. He'd have done something about it, if he really thought this captain was letting Picard die. So I'm left to assume he probably knows his hairbrained suggestion of a rescue or admitting to the whole black op conspiracy is suicide for everybody, & he just wanted to bark down the captain he didn't like
Riker's idea wasn't smart at all since it would have started a war, but many many times in the show they are risking war over 1 person, a lot of times for silly reasons. Remember Picard disobeying Starfleet and almost going to war over a kid's custody? And they fly into the neutral zone all the time risking war.
Again, I find that a gross oversimplification
That has never been my argument, they don't have a right to rebel against him. But taken into perspective, there is plenty of reasons to believe Jellico didn't handle the situation all that well.
& you're saying that his was the more prominent transgression, less defendable, & that Riker's is more forgivable, because Jellico is in the leadership role... should've handled it better, because he's the leader etc... and I'm saying that's not how the chain of command works. The greater burden of responsibility lies with the subordinate. It is their place to better hold to the chain of command, not the direct superior officer. Jellico was doing nothing that warranted rebellion of any kind, but in small ways & then even in some big ones, that's what Riker is doing, & the problems that occur between them are because of that.

See also, Mr. Data having none of those problems with Jellico. Riker's attitude is the bigger problem, because he's the one literally out of line. Jellico is just the captain, who for one reason or another, has no ability to be as nice about what he demands as they'd like. That's not a reason for Riker to be like he's being, nor is the fact that he intends to make things more different aboard ship than Riker wants. He must follow orders unless the captain is effectively out of control, criminal, endangering people etc... & that's not the case. In fact, quite the opposite. Once the agitator is out of the mix, things go swimmingly. Everybody is saved & the mission succeeds
 
Why should we have to? The issue is the chain of command, & how Riker is not respecting it with jellico. Job requirements IS the subject, & while Shelby maybe falls just a little short of unwavering respect for the chain of command, it's because she's been given to the assumption she'd have some unilateral say in what's being done, but Riker shoots that down... & when he does, she either respects it, or pleads to a higher authority, which is who she was brought there by, mind you.

But if the topic is Shelby and Jellico then the issue is also how Jellico handles difficult people in general. With many series worth of captains to compare him to, why not?

Just short of unwavering respect wouldn't fly with Jellico. Hypothetical:

JELLICO: Did you launch the probe I requested?
RIKER: Yes, sir. I wasn't aware you wanted to be informed.
JELLICO: Thank you. Jellico out. I can see why he's still only a first officer.

JELLICO: Did you beam down to the planet an hour earlier than I ordered?
SHELBY: Yes, sir. I wasn't aware you wanted to be informed.
JELLICO: I can see why you're still only a first officer. I expect to be notified if there's been a change to my orders.
SHELBY: Really, Captain, if we ran into the Borg here, two extra bodies wouldn't've made a hell of a difference, now would they? We had three hours before the storm front hit, less than two hours now. Data was available. I took him. We came. I don't see your problem.
JELLICO: Are you questioning my judgment, commander?
SHELBY: Do I need to remind you that I am here on the authority of admiral --
JELLICO: You're relieved. Don't make me confine you to quarters as well.

There is a confusion as to who she must answer to imho. She literally thought Riker was leaving & she's been tasked with a job that involved that, by an admiral who brought her expressly for that reason alone. Riker is the odd man out on this mission, but he does have a position & rank, so he's also not out, & she stumbles around that some. In truth though, he is not necessarily her direct superior in this instance. So she gets some slack in my view. Riker's Jellico situation has none of that. It's clear as day, that he's not interested in having things go that guy's way, which is his primary responsibility on this mission.

After their conversation in his quarters it's mostly clear that he's staying so it's a stretch that there's confusion, even then it becomes apparent after he chews her out about beaming down early. She still doesn't care and breaks chain of command by not respecting his decision on her plan.

Maybe now, facing total fleet annihilation, is not the time to be playing it safe, as he keeps singing. Riker has rank over her, but he is not in command of this mission. His say is not the final say on this mission, & she's been led to believe she has almost as much pull in that as anyone. He wants to shut her down from that. Maybe she's not wrong, & he's in the way of everything, including himself.

Or maybe she's not right? Maybe it would be a bad call to use the saucer separation that soon in the battle. Presumably Riker has more experience with it than she does and infinitely more experience with how the crew would have handled it. Ultimately they use the separation as Picard had decided as a backup plan.

So I'm left to assume he probably knows his hairbrained suggestion of a rescue or admitting to the whole black op conspiracy is suicide for everybody, & he just wanted to bark down the captain he didn't like

They didn't like each other at that point but BoBW proves Riker finds a way to work with those he doesn't like or get along with. But Jellico gave up on Picard, that's their main disagreement in that scene... it's totally a misrepresentation of the episode to make it seem like anything else

RIKER: What about Captain Picard?
(Jellico shakes his head)
RIKER: I'm not suggesting you trade an entire star system for one man's life, but you've got to acknowledge that these were Federation orders and he is a prisoner of war.
JELLICO: No.
RIKER: He will have the protection of the Seldonis Convention.
JELLICO: That would play right into Gul Lemec's hand. He's just waiting for some sign of weakness on our part before he starts making more demands.
RIKER: I can't believe you're willing to sacrifice Captain Picard's life as a negotiating tactic.
TROI: Will! Captain, we're all concerned about
JELLICO: Are you questioning my judgment, Commander?
RIKER: As First Officer, it is my responsibility to point out any actions that may be mistakes by a commanding officer. sir.

Remember when Data brought Worf up on insubordination and spoke to him privately, it took like 5 minutes and they still remained friends. Jellico with some strategic diplomacy with Riker could have achieved the same thing here

Once the agitator is out of the mix, things go swimmingly. Everybody is saved & the mission succeeds

Everything goes swimmingly when they come up with a risky attack / rescue plan which is kind of what Riker was asking for earlier in the episode.

RIKER: Aye, sir. Request permission to begin planning a rescue operation.
JELLICO: I know you were close to him, Will, but we don't even know if he's still alive. Under the circumstances, a rescue mission would be foolhardy.
RIKER: Shouldn't we assume that he is alive until it's been proved otherwise? We cannot just abandon him.
JELLICO: He's gone. I'm sorry, Will, but you're going to have to accept that. I want those tricorder readings analysed by fourteen hundred hours.
RIKER: Yes, sir.
 
As has already been said earlier in this thread, had Shelby been producing results, Jellico would likely tolerate her attitude. His problem with Riker was that he wasn't producing results, and was questioning or even refusing the orders Jellico gave him.
 
Just short of any unwavering respect wouldn't fly with Jellico.
And you're assuming she'd ever show any disrespect to a direct superior. Anything even resembling that which she is guilty of only happens with one officer who is not her direct superior. Outside of that, she has all of command backing her up, suggesting that she is indeed capable of being a reliable subordinate
JELLICO: Did you beam down to the planet an hour earlier than I ordered?
SHELBY: Yes, sir. I wasn't aware you wanted to be informed.
JELLICO: I can see why you're still only a first officer. I expect to be notified if there's been a change to my orders.
SHELBY: Really, Captain, if we ran into the Borg here, two extra bodies wouldn't've made a hell of a difference, now would they? We had three hours before the storm front hit, less than two hours now. Data was available. I took him. We came. I don't see your problem.
JELLICO: Are you questioning my judgment, commander?
SHELBY: Do I need to remind you that I am here on the authority of admiral --
JELLICO: You're relieved. Don't make me confine you to quarters as well.
That's a very slanted take on both her & him imho. This whole point hinges on saying she would beam down without her direct superior officer knowing about it, the captain, & person in command of the mission. Riker is none of those things. He's just an officer involved that outranks her. You're skipping over the part where she was brought there to not only replace him, but to in fact take action on the mission for high command. It's a specialist mission, not a permanent assignment. Not yet anyhow
After their conversation in his quarters it's mostly clear that he's staying so it's a stretch that there's confusion.
There's confusion about who she answers to. Just because he's the 1st officer doesn't necessarily mean she is required to answer to him, & if she is, then she's learning that on the fly, & yet still being asked to proceed with what she was brought there to do, by people higher up than him. He is in the way of that
Or maybe she's not right? Maybe it would be a bad call to use the saucer separation that soon in the battle. Presumably Riker has more experience with it than she does and infinitely more experience with how the crew would have handled it. Ultimately they use the separation as Picard had decided as a backup plan.
Maybe maybe maybe. Her suggestions don't just come out of nowhere. She's been making them for months back at command. So... (Maybe game) Maybe Picard doesn't decide to use her plan as a backup, if he never finds out about it in the manner she wants it represented. Enough maybes. What we know is that she was brought in for suggestions just like that one. Ones that admirals want to hear. So probably ones that captains want to hear too, & ones that 1st officers might need to agree to first, but.... she didn't seem to know that, as I said above
They didn't like each other at that point but BoBW proves Riker finds a way to work with those he doesn't like or get along with. But Jellico gave up on Picard, that's their main disagreement in that scene... it's totally a misrepresentation of the episode to make it seem like anything else
Once again, forgetting that his plan saved Picard's life, precisely because it gave them the advantage. Without having the advantage on them, you don't, unless you start lining up warships, & probably not even then. Certainly not if you fly off on a half-cocked rescue op, that they are certainly expecting. It's only giving up on Picard in that it's admitting that they are in no position to prioritize him above other concerns, least of all, when they don't even really know if the guy is even still alive.

The answer to Riker's question of "Shouldn't we assume he is alive until we know otherwise?" is "Under the circumstances? Hell no. We assume he's dead, because he probably should be." We assume he's caught as a spy. We know there was a firefight. So, now he's also a terrorist. We assume he's tortured for information that they'll probably get, & do, & then when they have no further use of him, we assume they exact retribution by murdering him, at some unknown location. We assume they're lying to us about returning him, if we cave in & give back worlds, worlds they're already mounting an invasion on. We assume nothing that guy said is true, & we act on what we know we can, & not on what they tell us we can.
Remember when Data brought Worf up on insubordination and spoke to him privately, it took like 5 minutes and they still remained friends. Jellico with some strategic diplomacy with Riker could have achieved the same thing here
Even though he wasn't going to do what Riker demanded he do, louder than I'd ever heard him yell at anyone? The man is not talking Riker down from the fact that the primary goal is NOT going after Picard, nor admitting the entire Federation's complicity. That is what Riker wants, & it's not happening. So the only way Riker's behavior gets verbally deescalated is if Jellico caves & just does what he wants. Need I remind you who's in charge here?

That's also not the same as Worf's minor verbalization of disgruntlement at all. It is literally Riker openly & defiantly challenging the man's command, & that is why Troi is trying to stop him before it goes there, because as an empath, she already knows that Riker isn't winning this one, & if he wants any hope of getting a chance to have anything the way he'd want it, he ought to shut up

But he won't, because he is emotionally compromised, as he ALWAYS is when Picard's life is in jeopardy, & not only is he not thinking clearly, he is suggesting one of the dumbest ideas in all of brinkmanship... not just trading entire star systems for one man's life, but potentially reigniting the spark of war between 2 superpowers over a man's life, who he only thinks might be alive, because that other superpower lorded that possibility over him, like a carrot in front of a donkey. He's the suckiest sucker that ever sucked imho
Everything goes swimmingly when they come up with a risky attack / rescue plan which is kind of what Riker was asking for earlier in the episode.
It's absolutely nothing like what Riker was suggesting. He demanded they publicly implicate all of Starfleet in Picard's mission, so he could have the protection of a POW, which, newsflash, means you all were acting as the enemy, like you used to be, before all that peace treaty/armistice stuff, & thereby, YOU are now the military aggressor. Maybe you get your ass handed to you at the diplomacy table over that, & lose whole worlds because of it, OR maybe you end up getting billions of people killed because of it. The only way you know which they intend to do is by trusting what the duplicitous negotiator is telling you

Nechayev never says they won't go to war. She says she hopes they won't have to. That means it's a very real possibility. Admitting Starfleet's complicity jeopardizes everyone. The other part of Riker's brilliantly thought out plan is charging out to rescue the guy, which they'll undoubtedly be squeeing like schoolgirls over the hope that you will, as it just makes it even more obvious that you are the aggressors. It undermines everything the Federation is supposed to stand for. It could crumble all the support the UFP has as being a passive conglomerate. "We got Picard" is the bait. Are you really going to be dumb enough to just bite that right off?

However... Jellico's plan is to investigate. Find out a way to get ahead of this ball. Determine what they are up to, so they can craft a method for how to intervene intelligently, by doing the right thing, instead of just "DO SOMETHING", which is basically all Riker is offering. Jellico's plan is to stop them, get them on the defensive, take back the advantage, & because he's thinking clearly like that, & he knows how to aim a very excellent crew, he's able to find what he needs, & use it to get exactly where he needs to be

Besides, if we're debating over which plan is the one everyone should be getting behind... need I remind you who is in charge?
 
As has already been said earlier in this thread, had Shelby been producing results, Jellico would likely tolerate her attitude. His problem with Riker was that he wasn't producing results, and was questioning or even refusing the orders Jellico gave him.

It was more than that, as I quoted above he had a problem with Riker not reporting the probe. Simple miscommunications.

Riker is none of those things. He's just an officer involved that outranks her. You're skipping over the part where she was brought there to not only replace him, but to in fact take action on the mission for high command. It's a specialist mission, not a permanent assignment

It makes sense but the scenes don't really play out like this in the actual episode. There's not even a hint of "Technically I don't report to you" in her responses during those scenes. She brings the plan to him first because she knows she is still under his command.

It's absolutely nothing like what Riker was suggesting. He demanded they publicly implicate all of Starfleet in Picard's mission, so he could have the protection of a POW, which, newsflash, means you all were acting as the enemy, like you used to be, before all that peace treaty/armistice stuff, & thereby, YOU are now the military aggressor.

I agree that's a terrible idea to admit it was federation orders for the sake of Picard, but earlier than that as I quoted, Riker had asked to start planning a rescue operation. We don't know what kind, it could have entailed just one guy sent to find him or scout around for information, or devising a long term plan to get him out. They regularly did stuff risking a war like that, often for less than rescuing a captain.

I'm not sure any of the other crews would have given up on their captain so easily despite being ordered to by a new captain. In Voyager I recall almost a complete mutiny against Tuvok when he suggested they leave the captain behind in one episode. That's another example of a story in Star Trek where the message isn't meant to be "shut up and follow orders"
 
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I am sure the Cardassians were prepared for a rescue mission and the place where Picard was detained was well garded and defended. It would have likely taken an army of ships to get him out. Riker's reaction was just plain stupid.
 
I am sure the Cardassians were prepared for a rescue mission.
More than that. It's probably exactly what they were hoping someone would do. That's what you expect from the bait, for someone to try & come bite it
It was more than that, as I quoted above he had a problem with Riker not reporting the probe. Simple miscommunications.
Not that he did anything about. He didn't light him up over it, or double down on what he expects or anything. He just closes the channel & murmurs to himself. Geez. Riker is making another excuse. Once you start hearing your crew making excuses, it gets hard to hear them without noticing them. That's all he did was notice another excuse, & let it go.
It makes sense but the scenes don't really play out like this in the actual episode. There's not even a hint of "Technically I don't report to you" in her responses during those scenes.
But there's all kinds of moments that portray the attitude that she's operating as a special consult & needs to be reminded that she's not, if that's the case. That & the person who brought her literally uses the phrase "wide latitude". They don't tell you where the bathroom is either, but we can figure out they have one
Riker had asked to start planning a rescue operation. We don't know what kind, it could have entailed just one guy sent to find him or scout around for information, or devising a long term plan to get him out.
Then that's what Riker should done, outside the uniform he wears, because that's the only way to drive an initiative like that. That rescue op, much like the initial espionage op, must be disavowed. It can't be official, for the fact that it's further provocative aggression. Riker doesn't do any of that though. He sits in his room like a lump

Not to mention that what Jellico did was the long term plan necessary to get Picard out. It may be one of the only things they could've done, because it shifted the power dynamic, such that they could just say "Give him back", instead of stumbling all around the sector killing people, in order to try to forcibly take him back. So Riker should've just stayed in line & tried to influence the direction of things the way the other officers did, that got them to that point, OR go rogue, & do his own thing. Which of those things did Riker do again?

I admit, if I didn't like the answer I was getting, that amounted to "Let him go" I might go rogue, but I'd be certain it was not the best or most sound idea, just the immediate one, & I'd expect we might all end up caught or dead, because they set it up for us to do exactly that. This is what Jellico is navigating around. He wants the winning formula, not the fast & loose one
 
More than that. It's probably exactly what they were hoping someone would do. That's what you expect from the bait, for someone to try & come bite it...

Yes, and in that exchange, Jellico is the most reasonable of the two. I remember when Picard as Locutus said to Riker that he (Picard) wouldn't have approved the mission to rescue him.

It was probably true. Similarly, in Chain Of Command, he wouldn't have approved of a mission like that either.
 
Yes, and in that exchange, Jellico is the most reasonable of the two. I remember when Picard as Locutus said to Riker that he (Picard) wouldn't have approved the mission to rescue him.

It was probably true. Similarly, in Chain Of Command, he wouldn't have approved of a mission like that either.
I've been thinking back on Time's Arrow, when the entire senior staff have to remind Riker that rushing out to save Picard is the damn wrong choice. It's his bloody calling card, to go off half-cocked to save Picard
 
Riker wouldn't have to go rogue on the captain to go on a secret undercover mission. They could have come up with something and kept the rest of the crew in the dark like they did in other secret mission episodes. Pretty ridiculous idea considering the circumstances, but so were many plans on Trek...

Also implying Jellico's decisions were any type of long term plan to rescue Picard is a real stretch to make Jellico look better than what was portrayed in the actual episode. He gave up on Picard and was totally prepared to write him off before the mission even began.

That's the thing with the Jellico/Shelby combo, imagining them as bad asses who would get along perfectly requires all this finagling to make them better in their respective episodes than staying true to the characters
 
Actually, they're both accomplished Starfleet officers in good standing, better than good standing. They are both hand picked by upper command to take charge of volatile situations. That's the truth of their characters, despite how people interpret them. Imagining them as somehow incapable of functioning in the roles they've already distinguished themselves is the stretch of imagination

The bottom line is that at some level you have to expect Starfleet to be good at some things, since they were the ones to put Kirk, Picard, Sisko et al in command of their respective posts. When they do so with these people too, there are reasons. You don't become the captain of The Cairo or the mastermind of the Borg task force by being as incompetent as people in these debates want to portray them, because they have a bias of overly supporting the main characters.

You become those kinds of people the same way Picard became the captain of the Enterprise. They earn & deserve it, & unlike in the rare example of a corrupt person reaching those levels, like Eric Pressman, neither of these two have done anything to warrant being judged otherwise, beyond not ingratiating themselves to our favorite people. That is literally the whole point of crafting a character like them, as opposed to the Norah Satie ones, to challenge the audience's automatic perception that "Our" people are the only ones that matter, & these new people, who our people don't instantly love, must be the wrong ones, because they're not the ones we're on our journey with. They want you to question your allegiances, & if you don't, the episode is falling on deaf ears imho

& that's why I probably argue it waaaaay longer than is healthy lol
 
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