Jellico/Shelby

[The Wormhole]

The crew blew up a borg cube on earth's doorstep with no Picard in command.

And why wasn't Picard in command? Because he was abducted off the bridge of his ship and assimilated by the Borg, who then used his knowledge to make their way to Earth unchallenged, save for a blockade of starships the Borg easily destroyed.

Also, the defeat of the Borg doesn't really reflect the performance of the Enterprise too well. Riker was on the verge of ramming the ship into the Borg cube when Data announces he had hacked the cube through Locutus. The Borg are then put to sleep triggering their self-destruct. An argument can be made against the Enterprise D's combat preparedness. Hell, on DS9 we learn Odo had made a whole list of flaws with the ship's security procedures.

Shelby is also shown that she wanted some independence rather than discipline needlessly enforced ( she didn't want to have to check in with Riker before beaming down,

Realistically though, one can't just request to be beamed off the ship without some sort of authorization. Maybe Data as second officer could have given that authorization, but chances are Picard was aware of this and consented.

 

[Makarov]

I have to believe there is some other immediate issue that came up other than long term burn out, maybe an issue that doesn't translate to real world shift rotations. It had to be worth delaying the order. When I take into account Riker's character, for example he was the first to flip out over Barclay slacking off, he wouldn't allow the department heads to convince him unless there was a good reason. We'll never know exactly because Jellico chewed him out before hearing it

And why wasn't Picard in command? Because he was abducted off the bridge of his ship and assimilated by the Borg, who then used his knowledge to make their way to Earth unchallenged, save for a blockade of starships the Borg easily destroyed.

Also, the defeat of the Borg doesn't really reflect the performance of the Enterprise too well. Riker was on the verge of ramming the ship into the Borg cube when Data announces he had hacked the cube through Locutus. The Borg are then put to sleep triggering their self-destruct. An argument can be made against the Enterprise D's combat preparedness. Hell, on DS9 we learn Odo had made a whole list of flaws with the ship's security procedures.

I can't get on board with defeating the borg in BOBW being a negative mark against the crew. That's like something Admiral Satie would spin on those events. All the other ships at wolf 359 didn't fare any better. It's a combination of the entire crew that managed to defeat that cube. The away missions, Data hacking in, Riker giving the idea to plant a simple suggestion, and then Picard himself as well.

Realistically though, one can't just request to be beamed off the ship without some sort of authorization. Maybe Data as second officer could have given that authorization, but chances are Picard was aware of this and consented.

[Transporter room]
O'BRIEN: Sir, Commander Shelby and Data beamed down to the planet surface an hour ago.
RIKER: On whose authority?
O'BRIEN: On hers, sir.

Maybe Jellico wouldn't care about those things as long as she got the job done, but just as likely he would want it done his way

 

[The Wormhole]

I can't get on board with defeating the borg in BOBW being a negative mark against the crew. That's like something Admiral Satie would spin on those events. All the other ships at wolf 359 didn't fare any better. It's a combination of the entire crew that managed to defeat that cube. The away missions, Data hacking in, Riker giving the idea to plant a simple suggestion, and then Picard himself as well.

If Data had been delayed just one second from requesting Riker stand by, it wouldn't have mattered anyway because the ship would be colliding with the cube at FTL speeds. The Enterprise was basically defeated at that point, and the Borg had already destroyed 39 other ships, decimated the Mars Defense Perimeter and were parked in Earth orbit, forcing the Federation government to declare the planet's first State of Emergency since the twenty-third century.

 

[Longinus]

It is funny how when talking about 'Chain of Command' there is always team Jellico and team Riker. It is an extremely well written episode and Jellico is a brilliant character. He is obviously abrasive and poor people person, but he also has a point and his reasoning makes perfect sense. Similarly you can perfectly understand the Enterprise crew's reaction to him. No one is clearly right or wrong here (except Gul Madred!) It is quite clever. And the whole ship drama isn't even the best part of the episode!

 

[Discofan]

Jellico was very patient with Riker. He could have thrown him in the brig at the first sign of insubordination and he would have been well within his rights. Riker was as shitty with bossy Captains as he was with ambitious go-getter subordinates like Shelby. It's like he was there to get in the way.

 

[Makarov]

Riker was patient with Shelby actually, able to set his personal feelings aside and still use her as first officer. Where as Jellico in his position would have relieved her of duty for insubordination and wandered the ship looking for another borg expert.

 

[Discofan]

Riker was patient with Shelby actually, able to set his personal feelings aside and still use her as first officer. Where as Jellico in his position would have relieved her of duty for insubordination and wandered the ship looking for another borg expert.

Doubtful, Jellico wanted to get the job done and what irritated him is that with Riker the job was NOT done.

When your subordinate tells you "BTW, I didn't execute your orders." you are entitled to be irate.

 

[Mojochi]

There's an awful lot of guessing in here, about what these people would do. Shelby never failed to follow an order. She took a liberty that the ship's 1st officer took exception to

Jellico never had a problem with any officer, except the one who did fail to follow an order. The only other issues he had were operating standards that he required alterations to

For example, Troi had been out of standard uniform. It was a liberty she had long enjoyed, but it certainly could've been something that reflected poorly on their negotiations, had she remained so, alongside Jellico, when he met with Lemec... a potential sign of weakness, or undermining of his authority

I'd say that Jellico was far more cordial to Troi about correcting her uniform protocol transgression than Riker was to Shelby about correcting her procedural protocol transgression. He literally threatened Shelby over what was essentially an issue of procedure.

In fact, Riker even came down on Ro Laren extremely harshly about uniform codes, whereas Jellico was very polite about them with Troi.

 

[Discofan]

Honestly, I would be much more Ok with a superior like Jellico than one like Riker who once berated someone for saying "Aye" twice!!!

 

[Sgt_G]

To be fair, he was trying to be hard on the kid (yes, at my age, all Ensigns / Second Lieutenants are kids), and that was the only thing the kid did "wrong".

 

[Discofan]

Maybe Riker was so hard on Shelby because he had one for her...

 

[Makarov]

Jellico never had a problem with any officer, except the one who did fail to follow an order. The only other issues he had were operating standards that he required alterations to

The main thing which became a real issue was Riker disagreeing on sacrificing Picard, which became a shouting match where Jellico relieved him of duty right in front of Troi. Now think about Shelby in a disagreement. When she came to that situation with Riker about the saucer separation plan, she totally went around him and disregarded his judgement causing him to confront her. Say that happened with Jellico on Cardassians he would flip out too except more harsh than Riker

In fact, Riker even came down on Ro Laren extremely harshly about uniform codes, whereas Jellico was very polite about them with Troi.

I think that was part of everybody busting her chops because of what she did with her away team and her disrespect towards Starfleet

 

[Mojochi]

The main thing which became a real issue was Riker disagreeing on sacrificing Picard, which became a shouting match where Jellico relieved him of duty right in front of Troi. Now think about Shelby in a disagreement. When she came to that situation with Riker about the saucer separation plan, she totally went around him and disregarded his judgement causing him to confront her. Say that happened with Jellico on Cardassians he would flip out too except more harsh than Riker

I'm just not seeing the correlation. The main thing wasn't just the final disagreement that got Riker relieved. He'd be spiraling down a well of disgruntlement that led him to that argument, the whole time, right from when he voiced his opinion to Nechayev, that he should've been put in command. Refusing to put in place a command order, because he expected he had the leeway to reverse it. Talking disparagingly about the captain to his subordinates, potentially tainting their attitudes towards him, engaging in obstinance or apathy where his duty is concerned because he feels underappreciated.

I'll cite the examples if you really want me to, but it was more than just one argument about Picard, wherein logistically, Jellico is actually right. It would've been foolhardy for them to just send a team there to rescue him. It's literally the definition of going off half-cocked, & was probably exactly what the gambit was intended to invoke. Playing right into their hand.
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Anyway, Shelby only had two real issues. She went down to the surface with Data, because she thought she had that authority, & autonomy, & since she doesn't serve under Picard or Riker directly, I'm not entirely sure she doesn't. She's the mission specialist, & at the very least, she may be coming from an assignment where she'd been granted that leeway. Only after Riker objects to it, do we figure she has to answer to him in some way, even if only in rank. If it was such a terrible rank abuse, why would Data have been so readily willing to avail himself of it?

Secondly, she proposes a course of action that he dismisses, & she takes it to his superior, & again, there's no real evidence to suggest that Picard's ear is limited only to suggestions that run up the chain of command. Picard himself asks often for suggestions from all available avenues, & doesn't seem to have much issue with this one having been brought to him either.

I'm not seeing how either of those minor procedural indiscretions would serve to malign her ability to be a solid #1 to Jellico. She would know she answers to him directly. Whereas her status with Riker is less defined imho, & in fact, the dude is admittedly a little complacent to boot, & probably ought to feel the pinch of lesser officers driving up the ranks through him. All tolled, when the mission took form, & she got posted as XO under Riker, there was nothing of any of that, & that's the example we should be recognizing imho

I think that was part of everybody busting her chops because of what she did with her away team and her disrespect towards Starfleet

My point wasn't about her though. It was about him doing that. That Ro is a problematic officer is beside the point. If he's an admirable officer in his own right, he should have more respect for himself & his post than to knock someone over minutia, out of spite for them, especially when the Klingon wears an equivalent cultural adornment & the ship's counselor dresses in civilian attire. Clearly, Picard's crew isn't the best example of staunch uniform code, & yet Will is using that to push her around, just because he wants to push her around. Deserved or not, it's a pretty poor reflection on him imho, & rather small of him, at least pettier than Jellico was in the same situation with Troi, where pretty much everyone aboard was bucking his command, in spirit.

 

[The Wormhole]

Deserved or not, it's a pretty poor reflection on him imho, & rather small of him, at least pettier than Jellico was in the same situation with Troi, where pretty much everyone aboard was bucking his command, in spirit.

Hell, all Ro did was beam aboard and introduce herself and Riker immediately snapped at her about the earring in the presence of others. Jellico on the other hand politely told Deanna she was to start wearing a uniform in a private conversation inside the ready room.

 

[Mojochi]

Hell, all Ro did was beam aboard and introduce herself and Riker immediately snapped at her about the earring in the presence of others. Jellico on the other hand politely told Deanna she was to start wearing a uniform in a private conversation inside the ready room.

Given her nature of not taking shit from people, it's really unfortunate that she didn't in some way come back to Riker later about Worf's baldric. It always seemed dumb to me that she's getting flack about a barely noticeable earring, when Worf wears a giant metallic sash on the bridge, that covers most of his uniform. I mean, there's probably ways to hand wave it, but it doesn't do much to support Riker's claim.

 

[USS Firefly]

Given her nature of not taking shit from people, it's really unfortunate that she didn't in some way come back to Riker later about Worf's baldric. It always seemed dumb to me that she's getting flack about a barely noticeable earring, when Worf wears a giant metallic sash on the bridge, that covers most of his uniform. I mean, there's probably ways to hand wave it, but it doesn't do much to support Riker's claim.

I agree, it only make Riker looks like a dick, like he did with the officer who said twice "aye aye sir"

 

[Makarov]

Anyway, Shelby only had two real issues. She went down to the surface with Data, because she thought she had that authority, & autonomy, & since she doesn't serve under Picard or Riker directly, I'm not entirely sure she doesn't. She's the mission specialist, & at the very least, she may be coming from an assignment where she'd been granted that leeway.

So why be understanding about Shelby being used to some leeway and then blast Riker for expecting the same from Jellico? There are double standards when it comes to Shelby

Secondly, she proposes a course of action that he dismisses, & she takes it to his superior, & again, there's no real evidence to suggest that Picard's ear is limited only to suggestions that run up the chain of command. Picard himself asks often for suggestions from all available avenues, & doesn't seem to have much issue with this one having been brought to him either.

Picard probably didn't even know Riker had heard the idea already. If he had, he would probably tell her to respect Riker's judgement. He always had full confidence in him

All tolled, when the mission took form, & she got posted as XO under Riker, there was nothing of any of that, & that's the example we should be recognizing imho

Partly because Riker made the effort to connect with her as a person and Jellico could have avoided a lot of the issues in that episode by doing a little of that. He barely tries at the end asking him about music.

My point wasn't about her though. It was about him doing that. That Ro is a problematic officer is beside the point. If he's an admirable officer in his own right, he should have more respect for himself & his post than to knock someone over minutia, out of spite for them, especially when the Klingon wears an equivalent cultural adornment & the ship's counselor dresses in civilian attire. Clearly, Picard's crew isn't the best example of staunch uniform code, & yet Will is using that to push her around, just because he wants to push her around. Deserved or not, it's a pretty poor reflection on him imho, & rather small of him, at least pettier than Jellico was in the same situation with Troi, where pretty much everyone aboard was bucking his command, in spirit.

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Hell, all Ro did was beam aboard and introduce herself and Riker immediately snapped at her about the earring in the presence of others. Jellico on the other hand politely told Deanna she was to start wearing a uniform in a private conversation inside the ready room.

Of course he was more cordial, one is court martialed no one wanted on the ship, the other is just doesn't like how someone is dressing. Riker was using anything he could to make a point of following procedures on the ship, sending a message to a person who got other Starfleet officers killed. I can't knock him for that one

 

[The Wormhole]

Of course he was more cordial, one is court martialed no one wanted on the ship, the other is just doesn't like how someone is dressing. Riker was using anything he could to make a point of following procedures on the ship, sending a message to a person who got other Starfleet officers killed. I can't knock him for that one

Except when you take into account that
-Starfleet allows anything of cultural significance to be worn with the uniform, as evidenced with Worf and his baldric. So Ro should have been allowed her earring.
-The Enterprise's "strict uniform code" allows for one officer to wear a cultural baldric while on duty, another officer doesn't even wear a uniform while on duty, and an enlisted man wearing officer's insignia on his collar. To say nothing of Riker's own non-regulation beard.

 

[starburst]

There's nothing to support Riker's beard being non-regulation to Starfleet though, there were plenty of other examples of Starfleet Officers with beards during the series including Worf, Geordi, Argyle and Bateson to mention just 4 from TNG.

 

[The Wormhole]

Aside from Bateson, those are all further examples of the Enterprise's lax uniform code.