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Worf, Better Defined On DS9

PorthosShadow

Fleet Captain
Fleet Captain
I like the TNG but I was never a huge fan of Worf until he came on to DS9. I always felt as a character who was torn between two worlds DS9 was a better fit than on TNG where the conflict occassionally ran into him. DS9 on the other he was always in some kind of trouble:guffaw:
 
I actually think Worf's best material is split pretty evenly between TNG and DS9. On TNG he stood out more because he was the only character that really struggled with his identity, was a misfit, was often a bit of an egomaniac and therefore a jerk to other characters, etc. Worf was one of my favorite characters on TNG. On DS9 he's pretty low on the list. I also think the Klingon material was getting a little stale on DS9, while it was originally new and fun on TNG. This is something that is lost, of course, during re-watches of the two shows.

That said, Worf fits in very well on DS9 (perhaps almost too well). Initially in season 4, the writers went with the idea that Worf would feel out of place on the station, but this is quickly abandoned because it's obviously untrue: he fits in better there than on the Enterprise, all things considered. For example, at a certain point in season 4, about half the cast is some kind of exile or outcast: Worf from the Klingon empire, Garak and Dukat from Cardassia, Odo from the Dominion, Quark from mainstream Ferengi culture, etc.

After getting showcased in season 4, Worf becomes more of a supporting player on DS9, which I'm personally grateful for. We can compare the way this was handled on DS9 with what happened on Voyager with Seven, who was also brought onboard in the middle of the show to boost ratings: Seven takes over that show, whereas Worf is integrated quite seamlessly into the cast of characters, with Sisko and Kira basically remaining the series' leads in the later seasons to the extent that it is even possible to identify lead characters on what is truly an ensemble show.

On a side note, DS9 does allow Worf to actually kick some ass for a change, rather than always experiencing the "Worf effect," i.e. the tendency for the ostensibly proficient fighter to be regularly defeated as proof of the toughness of the opponent of the week.
 
I liked him better on TNG. I guess I preferred him in the sort of "Spock" role he had as the uptight outsider. On DS9, everyone was a Klingon fanboy/girl, swigging Raktajinos and swinging Bat'Leths. Don't get me wrong, I (eventually) came to enjoy Worf's tenure on DS9, but I'll always see the Enterprise as his real home.
 
On a side note, DS9 does allow Worf to actually kick some ass for a change, rather than always experiencing the "Worf effect," i.e. the tendency for the ostensibly proficient fighter to be regularly defeated as proof of the toughness of the opponent of the week.

Exactly.

In TNG, it was always, "Let's have the alien of the week beat the tar outta Worf to show how tough it is!"

Result? "Aw, gee, Worf must not be so tough, if he always gets beat by the alien of the week!"

In DS9...he beats SEVEN Jem'Hadar in a row, and drives the duel with the First into what is basically a draw.
 
There are a couple of things about Worf I'm not crazy about in Deep Space Nine, such as the sort of jarring quality in which he so rarely mentions Alexander and whatnot. But on the whole, I definitely find him much more fascinating there, because DS9 is a show that focuses on characterization to a level TNG does not. Some might not like it for that, but I can't get enough of it.
 
There are a couple of things about Worf I'm not crazy about in Deep Space Nine, such as the sort of jarring quality in which he so rarely mentions Alexander and whatnot. But on the whole, I definitely find him much more fascinating there, because DS9 is a show that focuses on characterization to a level TNG does not. Some might not like it for that, but I can't get enough of it.

Well said. The writers' omission of even the occasional mention of Alexander in DS9 bothers me because although Worf was by no means a perfect father it strikes me as out of character for him not to keep in contact with his son for so many years. In TNG Worf is often portrayed as the only senior officer who has ongoing issues (Alexander, culture clash, self-identity issues and the like) while DS9 portrays all the characters in a much more rounded, realistic manner, no matter what species the character is. Supporter of the underdog that I am, I've always had a soft spot for Worf, and I agree that he fits in better with the DS9 crew than the Enterprise crew.
 
On a side note, DS9 does allow Worf to actually kick some ass for a change, rather than always experiencing the "Worf effect," i.e. the tendency for the ostensibly proficient fighter to be regularly defeated as proof of the toughness of the opponent of the week.

Exactly.

In TNG, it was always, "Let's have the alien of the week beat the tar outta Worf to show how tough it is!"

Result? "Aw, gee, Worf must not be so tough, if he always gets beat by the alien of the week!"

In DS9...he beats SEVEN Jem'Hadar in a row, and drives the duel with the First into what is basically a draw.

I loved that..."I cannot defeat him, I can only kill him. And that no longer interests me."

Worf got a heck of a lot tougher on DS9, definitely, and I liked him more, although I enjoyed him on TNG as well. I didn't like the way DS9 handled Alexander, though...he had potential but turned into a wimpy clumsy moron...though that's the idea. Worf is this great warrior and his son is nothing. Potential for story, but it felt kind of weak for me.
I wonder how Alexander will fare in the future, will he ever become 'Klingon?' At the moment he's a scared human with bumps on his head.
 
I think Worf was better on TNG than DS9.

In TNG, Worf had much of the comic material (along with Data) and I think that worked well with the character's personality (the staid/stoical guy making funny one-liners). Lines like "Good tea, nice house" or "Nice legs..er..for a human" or "Ha ha ha! Impossible!" were good deliveries. lol.

In DS9 though, he was more grumpy and stoical, and not written as much into comic roles. I disagree that the Klingon/Federation conflict he had went away in DS9. Until up he met Martok and joined Martok's house, he was a dishonoured Klingon. Other Klingons still would say he wore a "child's uniform". The conflict is part of the Worf character, and wouldn't really go away. It's like saying Data should have got rid of wanting to learn about humanity, or Picard be less cerebral and ethical, or Janeway not give a damn about science. It's part and parcel of who they were as characters.

I think that the Klingon episodes in DS9 were also weak, perhaps bar The Way of the Warrior, Soldiers of the Empire or Tacking into the Wind. Heart of Glory, Sins of the Father and Rightful Heir to me were the standouts (and frankly laid the basis of all Klingon culture we see).
 
^You make a good point...Worf's one-liners were part of what made TNG so funny.

"That is a joke! I get it!"

One of my favorite Worf scenes, I admit, is in The Outrageous Okona. Okona asks if they're going to see the Captain, and Worf just laughs at him. I'm not sure why, but it's a great scene.

He has great scenes in both series, I guess.
 
I agree with Indolover, and was going to bring up that point regarding the humor. What the heck happened to Worf when he went to DS9? He actually REGRESSED rather than developed as a character, going from at ease with himself by TNG seasons 5- 7 to a grumpy, stick in the mud on DS9. (Look at episodes like LHWIWS, if you can stand it.)

I liked him much better on TNG, and felt that he just fit there better, and was glad to see him back there in ST: Nemesis.
 
On a side note, DS9 does allow Worf to actually kick some ass for a change, rather than always experiencing the "Worf effect," i.e. the tendency for the ostensibly proficient fighter to be regularly defeated as proof of the toughness of the opponent of the week.

Exactly.

In TNG, it was always, "Let's have the alien of the week beat the tar outta Worf to show how tough it is!"

Result? "Aw, gee, Worf must not be so tough, if he always gets beat by the alien of the week!"

In DS9...he beats SEVEN Jem'Hadar in a row, and drives the duel with the First into what is basically a draw.

I loved that..."I cannot defeat him, I can only kill him. And that no longer interests me."

Somehow...when I think of that scene, THIS track enters my mind:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvQkl7qa6RQ

Fits it to a tee, I think--down to Worf's near defeat, and his getting back up....
 
There are a couple of things about Worf I'm not crazy about in Deep Space Nine, such as the sort of jarring quality in which he so rarely mentions Alexander and whatnot. But on the whole, I definitely find him much more fascinating there, because DS9 is a show that focuses on characterization to a level TNG does not. Some might not like it for that, but I can't get enough of it.

Well said. The writers' omission of even the occasional mention of Alexander in DS9 bothers me because although Worf was by no means a perfect father it strikes me as out of character for him not to keep in contact with his son for so many years. In TNG Worf is often portrayed as the only senior officer who has ongoing issues (Alexander, culture clash, self-identity issues and the like) while DS9 portrays all the characters in a much more rounded, realistic manner, no matter what species the character is. Supporter of the underdog that I am, I've always had a soft spot for Worf, and I agree that he fits in better with the DS9 crew than the Enterprise crew.

Agreed, on TNG, it seemed as if their relationship started off awkwardly, but as time went by you could see Worf was responsible and cared about Alexander.

Then all of the sudden in the last season, Alexander disappears.
You get the impression that they were close and got along great and he just sent Alexander to visit with his parents temporarily.

But on DS9 we find out that Worf.......basically just left him with his parents-no attempt to contact him after that. A good 3 years or so..

Worf had some great moments on TNG.

One was in "Reunion" when Alexander asks what will happen to him, then asks Worf if he is his father..

Worf says he is, and they hug. It was very touching moment considering when you know what type of guy Worf is.
 
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I agree with most of what has already been said. The basics: There is a big difference between TNG-Worf and DS9-Worf. I prefer the DS9 version. The only unbalanced aspect of DS9's development of Worf is that he essentially became the greatest Klingon warrior in history, aside from Kahless. Think about it. How many battles did Worf lose on DS9?

Plus he put one Chancellor on the thrown, took him off, and then put another there in his place. That's a whole lot of Klingon history being shaped by just one person.
 
I actually think Worf's best material is split pretty evenly between TNG and DS9. On TNG he stood out more because he was the only character that really struggled with his identity, was a misfit, was often a bit of an egomaniac and therefore a jerk to other characters, etc. Worf was one of my favorite characters on TNG. On DS9 he's pretty low on the list. I also think the Klingon material was getting a little stale on DS9, while it was originally new and fun on TNG. This is something that is lost, of course, during re-watches of the two shows.

I think the more I re-watch TNG, the more appreciative I am of the Worf character, because of the reasons you mentioned.

But I disagree Worf was the only character than struggled with identity. Data did too. His quest to become human is at the core of this, and it raised some big philosophical points too, all tying in with identity.

Actually, I think the concept of identity is made to be very important and is one of the key focus points throughout the Star Trek franchise (from Spock, to Worf, Data and then Odo).

That said, Worf fits in very well on DS9 (perhaps almost too well).

He does.

Agreed that he's equally good in both shows.

Michael Dorn isn't a great actor, but his acting grew with the Worf character overtime and I believe after he retires from the business it'll be the highlight of his professional career.

Maniarek.
 
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Data did too.

You're right, I was thinking even as I typed my original post that Data should probably be included in that category as well, though I think in Data's case his identity struggles are often overshadowed by his superhuman awesomeness in so many areas of expertise, including not only intelligence and strength, but also musical skill, etc.

Data is occasionally the object of bigotry from guest characters and such, but he really doesn't have any trouble fitting in on the Enterprise. How could he, when his fellow officers seem to be incapable of jealousy or prejudice, and when he is so good at everything and also perfectly noble, self-less and diligent? It just feels (to me at least) that Worf actually struggles more.
 
Data did too.

You're right, I was thinking even as I typed my original post that Data should probably be included in that category as well, though I think in Data's case his identity struggles are often overshadowed by his superhuman awesomeness in so many areas of expertise, including not only intelligence and strength, but also musical skill, etc.

IMO what makes Data so fascinating is not just his abilities, but his interactions with the rest of the cast (his honesty, striving to understand people's emotions, etc.) and his relentless pursuit to be as human as possible (such as raising questions about human life). In almost every major or Data-centric episode, you have these character-defining moments where Data realises what being human – and thus imperfect – is all about. Then combine this deep character with wicked physical and mental abilities and you have probably one of the most amazing characters in all of TV.

Data is occasionally the object of bigotry from guest characters and such, but he really doesn't have any trouble fitting in on the Enterprise. How could he, when his fellow officers seem to be incapable of jealousy or prejudice, and when he is so good at everything and also perfectly noble, self-less and diligent? It just feels (to me at least) that Worf actually struggles more.

I think it's more pronounced because he has feelings and emotions unlike Data. It's perhaps easier for viewers for empathize at first (the loneliness and frustration of Worf etc.). But, to me anyway, you can also feel what Data must be feeling if he had emotions, I think. For example, his decisions and actions in “The Offspring”.

Maniarek.
 
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I thought Worf worked so much better on DS9, even more so than on TNG. I recall Worf always getting beat up on TNG, as was mentioned earlier, but Worf was also always being held back from his warrior nature by Picard and others on that series.

DS9 allowed Worf to be a true Klingon, but there were times on DS9 where Worf's 'go for the throat' nature would sometimes land him in trouble--like the time when he accidentally interfered with one of Odo's investigations.

DS9 pretty much unleased Worf, and he flourished very well. But I think Worf's presence om DS9 also enriched the series, too.

Sean
 
DS9 allowed Worf to be a true Klingon, but there were times on DS9 where Worf's 'go for the throat' nature would sometimes land him in trouble--like the time when he accidentally interfered with one of Odo's investigations.

There was also the episode with Worf's brother where Worf was carrying out a Klingon ritual but it was stopped. Then when Captain Sisko found out about it he really let Worf have it. I know it's slightly off topic but I really couldn't see Picard leaning that heavily on Worf if he had done that on The Enterprise.
 
Worf really took off as a fighter on DS9, even though he definitely had skills on TNG.

He also had a new look with the braided hair and new position (XO).

I agree that Worf's best material can divided pretty evenly with both TNG and DS9.

But somehow, he seemed 3 times more dour than usual on DS9 than he did on TNG.

Not a criticism, but just something I noticed.
 
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