Women and the generic masculine pronoun

[Rii]

So, English fails in not having a gender-neutral pronoun. "They" can be pressed into service in many cases, and most sentences can be rebuilt around "one" if one doesn't mind sounding like one has a stick up one's ass, but neither are perfect solutions and "he" continues to make its presence felt in cases where its referent could be either male or female.

I notice - or at least I think I notice, I haven't exactly run any controlled tests - that when I'm reading a text that uses "she" as the generic pronoun, it tends to slow me down, at least on the first instance. I think what's happening is that I'm aware that "he" is the "standard" choice, so when I encounter "she" a part of my mind asks why and considers possible explanations: gender of the author, context, etc.

What I'm not sure of, though, is to what extent my own gender affects this. Is the reason I'm able to process "he" faster than "she" purely a product of conditioning, or does the fact that I'm male have something to do with it as well?

Hence, I'm curious about how women deal with "he".

It's entirely possible that I'm simply imagining this discrepency, as on more than a few occasions after encountering the generic "he" I've thought "man, English sucks", which probably takes up as much processing time as the negotiation of "she" does.

 

[Mr. B]

Interesting topic. I've never thought about this, having never felt a need to mention one person without including the gender... and if I did then I would just ignore the plural nature of "they."

 

[Rii]

Interesting topic. I've never thought about this, having never felt a need to mention one person without including the gender... and if I did then I would just ignore the plural nature of "they."

It's usually used when you're generalising to a class. Here's an example I was reading a few minutes ago which prompted this thread:

"Once the child feels safe again, she is free to play or explore the environment. The attachment figure thus becomes a safe base from which the child can explore and to whom he can periodically return for 'emotional refuelling'."

I didn't even notice the alternating pronoun until I was typing that up just now. "She" registered in my mind as something requiring consideration, however brief, whereas "he" obviously didn't.

 

[Miss Chicken]

If I am writing I often use s/he to show that something could be referring to either sex. If I am speaking I tend to use they.

 

[OdoWanKenobi]

How about the fact that is is acceptable to refer to a group of females as "guys" but a single "guy" can only be male?

 

[SilentP]

How about the fact that is is acceptable to refer to a group of females as "guys" but a single "guy" can only be male?

Really, never knew you could refer to a group of females as 'guys'. But then again, I struggle to come up with a pronoun for females around 18-24. 'Women' makes them sound too old, yet 'girls' too young. Any suggestions?

BTW, I just say 'they' or 'one' less often when I need to use a pronoun and not specify gender.

 

[OdoWanKenobi]

How about the fact that is is acceptable to refer to a group of females as "guys" but a single "guy" can only be male?

Really, never knew you could refer to a group of females as 'guys'. But then again, I struggle to come up with a pronoun for females around 18-24. 'Women' makes them sound too old, yet 'girls' too young. Any suggestions?

BTW, I just say 'they' or 'one' less often when I need to use a pronoun and not specify gender.

It happens all the time. Often, people will greet a group of friends (regardless of gender) with "Hey, guys!"

 

[Yoda]

Interesting topic. I've never thought about this, having never felt a need to mention one person without including the gender... and if I did then I would just ignore the plural nature of "they."

It's usually used when you're generalising to a class. Here's an example I was reading a few minutes ago which prompted this thread:

"Once the child feels safe again, she is free to play or explore the environment. The attachment figure thus becomes a safe base from which the child can explore and to whom he can periodically return for 'emotional refuelling'."

I didn't even notice the alternating pronoun until I was typing that up just now. "She" registered in my mind as something requiring consideration, however brief, whereas "he" obviously didn't.

Using 'she' as a generic pronoun is just feminism gone wonky. Mixing the two like that is just terrible writing. I'm not surprised reading that excerpt gave you pause!

'He' as a generic pronoun IMO works perfectly fine, and probably didn't arise as a sexist thing to exclude women, but more because it worked and gender neutral pronouns didn't happen to arise. Cries of sexism seem to be winning the day though, so here's hoping people come up with something that doesn't sound ridiculously forced. I'm not holding my breath though.

How about the fact that is is acceptable to refer to a group of females as "guys" but a single "guy" can only be male?

Probably simply because 'guys' rolls off the tongue better than 'gals'.

Really, never knew you could refer to a group of females as 'guys'. But then again, I struggle to come up with a pronoun for females around 18-24. 'Women' makes them sound too old, yet 'girls' too young. Any suggestions?

Ladies? Bitches? Hookers? Chicks? Girls is probably fine, though if there's a hardcore feminist streak amongst 'em you should probably go with women. But, it all depends on what you're going for.

 

[TGTheodore]

Depending on who might be reading what I write or post, I've come to use "s/he" a great deal.

Also, using "folks" for a mixed group seems to work fine. And they seem to like it because it's quaint enough to make them smile.

I usually use "ladies" for all-female groups of any age (little girls love it, and older women like the respect).

And I frequently use "fellas" for an all-male group.

All three words are just odd enough that they usually are liked by the people I'm using them with because they indicate a friendly and familiar tone in the way I say them.

--Ted

 

[JuanBolio]

I had it pointed out to me a few days ago that my usage of the phrase "To each their own" (trying to stay gender neutral) is technically incorrect, since "each" is singular and "their" is plural.

What an odd language.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Language has a tendency to evolve the words it needs. In the case of the need for a gender-neutral pronoun, the word 'they' has come into use, which is perfectly appropriate, if perhaps not yet accepted in the ivory towers. The establishment always lags behind. 'He' is also acceptable, in the same sense that 'Man' or 'Mankind' is. Other invented solutions are just awkward. Alternating pronouns is inconsistent (and distracting), and 's/he' works on paper but is unpronounceable.

 

[Gepard]

Here's the Wikipedia article on gender-neutral pronouns. The table of invented pronouns is a laugh riot. The one I was already familiar with, hir, is probably the least silly of the options. It's probably not going to catch on, though, as it seems to be used at this point primarily by fanfic writers who use it to refer to hermaphrodite characters.

 

[RJDiogenes]

That's hilarious. Equally funny is that the singular "they" has been in use since the 15th Century and yet is still being argued.

 

[captcalhoun]

and 's/he' works on paper but is unpronounceable.

it's pronounced 'suh-he'

 

[Deckerd]

It's pronounced 'she he' or 'he she'. Sheesh.

'They' is completely acceptable, since the plural nature is suspended in a gender neutral situation.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

Really, never knew you could refer to a group of females as 'guys'. But then again, I struggle to come up with a pronoun for females around 18-24. 'Women' makes them sound too old, yet 'girls' too young. Any suggestions?

Ladies? Bitches? Hookers? Chicks? Girls is probably fine, though if there's a hardcore feminist streak amongst 'em you should probably go with women. But, it all depends on what you're going for.

On my lonlier nights, I simply refer to them as "The Enemy."

 

[cultcross]

It's pronounced 'she he' or 'he she'. Sheesh.

suh-eesh?

'They' is completely acceptable, since the plural nature is suspended in a gender neutral situation.

Agreed, I'd use 'they'.

 

[iguana_tonante]

In gender neutral situation I usually go with the singular they. It works perfectly fine for me, but I'm not a native speaker, so maybe any awkwardness is lost on me.

But then again, I struggle to come up with a pronoun for females around 18-24. 'Women' makes them sound too old, yet 'girls' too young. Any suggestions?

I use "ladies" or "young ladies" if they are obviously teen. For a mixed group I go with "people", but I like TGTheodore's the suggestion of "folk" very much!

I had it pointed out to me a few days ago that my usage of the phrase "To each their own" (trying to stay gender neutral) is technically incorrect, since "each" is singular and "their" is plural.

I don't think it's incorrect since the "singular they" is, by definition, singular.

'He' is also acceptable, in the same sense that 'Man' or 'Mankind' is. Other invented solutions are just awkward. Alternating pronouns is inconsistent (and distracting), and 's/he' works on paper but is unpronounceable.

I try to use Humanity instead of Mankind, but it always remind me of the Hindenburg's exclamation "Oh, the humanity!" and I giggle like a silly 10 years boy. So nowadays I usually go for "Humans": and I like the facts that it sounds vaguely sci-fi.

 

[JustKate]

I fight with this all. the. time. ALLLLLLL the time.

They is - sorry - not completely acceptable to me as a gender-neutral singular pronoun, and the reason is that it is in fact a plural pronoun. Of course it's plural - if it could at times be singular, we would sometimes say/write things like "This person is correct because they is brilliant," and we don't, do we? No.

So I do several different things. Mostly what I try to do is make the entire sentence plural, thereby ignoring the whole mess. I do use the gender-neutral he a fair amount of the time, and I'll sometimes use a gender-neutral she, and if I can do so sparingly, I'll use he or she sometimes, too. I'll use one only in situations where I try it and I can honestly say to myself, "Well, that doesn't sound as though the stick is too far up my ass" (what a wonderfully apt description, Rii) - and that generally means that I can get away with using it maybe once per page.

 

[Deckerd]

It's only a plural pronoun in context. Usage for hundreds of years makes it a gender neutral singular as well.