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Women and the generic masculine pronoun

I think it's funny when some women get upset when the term "man" is used in certain contexts ("no man has gone before", "all men are created equal") thinking it's talking about men, males. Forgetting that it's the shortform of what we are. Human.

The implication of 'man' or 'men' seems to me to be male human, not merely human.

If I say "Spock's mother was a man, but Spock's father wasn't a man", that sounds weird, not like it's just another way of saying "Spock's mother was a human, but Spock's father wasn't a human."

Or try asking people "How long does pregnancy last in men?"; I'd guess most would respond "Men don't get pregnant" or something like that, not the "Nine months" they'd say to "How long does pregnancy last in humans?"
 
I've never met any male midwives, but I probably would keep the term unless told otherwise; "male nurse" grates on my nerves.
A male Midwife is correctly called a Midwife. The 'wife' actually refers to the patient, not the provider. The title is derived from an Old English term that means 'with woman.'

I ran a Midwifery Service for fourteen years, so I know this stuff. :rommie:
 
Shift of tense
Misplaced modifiers
Dangling Participles
Subject/Object inequality

The language has gone to hell.

Out of laziness, ignorance and texting.

And I'm only talking about basic American English. Not the formal or business levels.

And I'm being only half-sarcastic. ;)

--Ted
 
I don't know about "policeman", but many words that end in "-man" are gender neutral. For example, in the word "chairman", the "-man" ending has the same root as "maniuplate". It refers to one who "mans" the chair, not a man who sits in the chair.
What's with people and the weird etymology today? :lol:

Sorry, but no. Chairman is the "guy in the chair", presiding over a board or a meeting. I suppose you can use it for a woman, too, but I've seen many uses of "chairwoman", "chairperson" or simply "chair" around.

Manipulate, on the other hand, has nothing to do with man or woman. It's from Latin "manus" = "hand", and it means "handling".
 
"He" is gender neutral.

I wish it were, mate.

But try telling that to the femo-nazis and I'll come back and help you try and find your balls.

THOSE types just get referred to by me as "cunts".

Yeah - I've been watching me a good amount of the BRILLIANT Lisa Lampanelli recently. Now THERE'S an awesome broad who knows the score!!!!!

:D
 
^ That is a convenient argument, but a specious one since the usage you propose is still, well, wrong by most accounts. Too bad Shakespeare can't be resurrected to use "they" as a singular and lobby for that use to be included in the OED. ;)

The OED is hardly the arbiter of English usage, for many years they insisted on a number of non-standard spellings just because the editors preferred them. Needless to say, everyone else ignored them. Dictionaries should report the language, not themselves shape it.
"Humor. It is a difficult concept."
 
I think it's funny when some women get upset when the term "man" is used in certain contexts ("no man has gone before", "all men are created equal") thinking it's talking about men, males. Forgetting that it's the shortform of what we are. Human.

The implication of 'man' or 'men' seems to me to be male human, not merely human.

If I say "Spock's mother was a man, but Spock's father wasn't a man", that sounds weird, not like it's just another way of saying "Spock's mother was a human, but Spock's father wasn't a human."

Or try asking people "How long does pregnancy last in men?"; I'd guess most would respond "Men don't get pregnant" or something like that, not the "Nine months" they'd say to "How long does pregnancy last in humans?"
That's because men is acceptable for males, both males and females, but not just females. After all, we are all part of mankind, eh?
 
I've never met any male midwives, but I probably would keep the term unless told otherwise; "male nurse" grates on my nerves.
A male Midwife is correctly called a Midwife. The 'wife' actually refers to the patient, not the provider. The title is derived from an Old English term that means 'with woman.'

I ran a Midwifery Service for fourteen years, so I know this stuff. :rommie:
Thank you! That's good to know. Although if I ever got pregnant again, I'd need a psychiatrist, not a midwife of any gender, so . . .
 
Whether we like it or not, it's "they." It grates on my nerves* but several grammarians have alredy weighed in on it and ruled it acceptable.

*But then, a lot of logical barbarisms dictate pronoun use: "you are" makes no sense when used in the singular yet "you is" immediately brands one uneducated--in fact, the second person pronoun is all screwed up thanks to the fact that there is no singular/plural distinction. And don't get me started on "Aren't I," which is even dumber since there's a perfectly good word--"ain't" (a contraction of am not)--which we've somehow decided (and, much like the split infinitive or the sentence that ends in a preposition, for no good reason--though grammarians have the sense to ease up on those proscriptions) is verboten.
 
But try telling that to the femo-nazis and I'll come back and help you try and find your balls.
Because there's never been oppression of women such that insisting "He" is neutral will bring a response. Maybe its the brains one needs to find rather than the balls.
THOSE types just get referred to by me as "cunts".
You're doing it wrong.
 
^^^Good on you. I'm no reflexive lover of women (I hate people in general but, having had my heart broken and--worse--my time wasted more times than I can count, I have a special antipathy for certain strains of feminine bullshit) but I agree with the above post 100%. I just wish we could have come up with a third word. "They" will have to do.
 
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That's because men is acceptable for males, both males and females, but not just females. After all, we are all part of mankind, eh?

But if 'men' can be gender-neutral, can mean humans, then it should apply to just females as well. If it only applies to cases including males, then it's not gender-neutral, but instead has an implication of maleness.

Here's another phrase: 'two men getting married'. For most people the implication would be a gay couple, right? Few would think that 'two men' includes both a male and a female.
 
I am not sure we can lump issues with the gender-neutral man/men and the gender-neutral he together. The first is much trickier than the second, or so it seems to me, though I'm not sure why.

For example, there I am in church on Sunday, and the New Testament reading was about the feeding of the 5,000 (Matthew 14: 15-21), a story that is very familiar to many people including me. But there was an unfamiliar part - I can't imagine why I never noticed it all these years, but it's the very last line: "And those who ate were about five thousand men, besides women and children."

So...it wasn't the literal, mythical or allegorical (depending on how you feel about scripture) feeding of the 5,000. It was the literal, mythical or allegorical feeding of who knows how many but probably quite a few more than 5,000, considering family sizes in those days. And during all these years of Bible study and sermon listening, I thought it was only 5,000. Why? Well for one thing, the person or people who write the subheads you see in some versions of the Bible always refer to it as "The feeding of the 5,000." That was what the subhead said on Sunday, too, and this despite the fact that this was a New Revised Standard version of the Bible, and the compilers of the NRSV have gone to quite a bit of trouble to use gender-neutral language when they can.

And the other reason is that the various people (right up until the person who preached this Sunday) who preached or taught a Sunday school lesson on this passage also called it "the feeding of the 5,000."

So...apparently a whole lot of people, including me, assumed a gender neutrality that was not actually there.

And that's the problem with the gender-neutral man, really. You can't always tell when it's supposed to be gender neutral and when it's not. In, "And those who ate were about 5,000 men," it is not. In "To boldly go where no man has gone before," it is. In "All men are created equal," we now assume it means "all people," but as for what it meant in 1776, I am just not sure. Sometimes, though certainly not always, the only way to tell whether it's gender-neutral or not is to know the mind of the writer. And how often can we do that?

I have never had as severe a problem with the gender-neutral he - some problems, yes, but not nearly as many. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I do use it, though I also generally take the time to consider if there might be a better alternative. But it's all on a case-by-case basis, at least for me. A careful writer, which is what I strive to be, has to read his (there it is!) work with an ear for how it will read to people who don't know him and never will know him except through the words he uses and how he uses them.
 
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