Why "Star Trek" is not right...

[UFO]

Which writers are you referring to? Writers of TOS or of ST 2009? The reason "The Cage" Spock isn't remembered is because Spock was rewritten and it was never used again.

But yet the smiling enthusastic Spock is still part of Spock's and Trek's history. This Spock is in the same time frame as that Spock. That can not be denied.

I see what you are saying, but given we know that Spock is from a pilot where he was not intended to be the same character, your "victory" is due to a technicality. Anyway that Spock seemed essentially human to me. He didn't, and I suspect never would have, become the icon the the logical, "controlled emotion" Spock did.

That [smiling] version of Spock did not become iconic.

Yeah I'm pretty sure that honor goes to the Spock that found balance between his human and vulcan halfs and wasnn't all vulcan all the time from the movies.

Hmmm, I doubt there are many examples where a watered down version of an icon out does the original. Not that there seemed much practical difference to me. More laid at times back perhaps.

After watching this movie for 3 times I have noticed several discrepancies in the first 30 minutes alone. ...

If these are the worst qualms you have about the movie you must have liked it a lot. ...

RAMA

Actually that conclusion cannot be drawn from your premise. But apart from point two, such objections do tend to give legitimate "whingers" a bad name!

... All things considered, he [Spock, given what he had experienced] was very poised and very logical.

A full human would have been in such a bloody huge state of shock it would have completely incapacitated them. ...

I agree. A great testement to the "Vulcan way". And there is no reason to supposed he wouldn't have kept making good command desisions. I.e. Changing his mind and going after Nero, if only Kirk had shared his intell instead of kicking Spock in the emotional balls (albeit for the "good" of the plot).

I have suggested STXI could use a little substance. I overlooked the Vuclan Science Academy entry scene. I thought it was well done.

Still can't understand why logical Vuclans would indulge in such overt racism, but that's a pre-existing issue.

 

[Pauln6]

Yeah, let's ignore the fact that he had just.... oh wait, I just said all of that. Paul, come on. Lose your entire species and actually watch your mum fall to her death and then try lecturing Spock about how illogical he's behaving. All things considered, he was very poised and very logical.

A full human would have been in such a bloody huge state of shock it would have completely incapacitated them.

Comparing this situation to anything else is unfair. Uhura, in this case, was the only female loved one left in his life. It doesn't take Freud to make the connection between his display of affection and the recent loss of his mother.

As for her staying on the Enterprise.... what does that have to do with Spock being emotional?

Oh I have almost no problem with Spock's behaviour throughout the movie and I agree with much of what you say (I particularly liked the scene with Uhura in the Turbolift) but the thread is a bit more general in its criticisms. I disliked the way Spock booted Kirk off the ship and I disliked the exchange with Kirk when they chose to blow up Nero but otherwise it wasn't too bad.

However, I disliked the scene in the transporter room - it was unnecessarily mushy for my tastes. Starfleet officers should not be kissing each other goodbye in that way while on duty. Every mission can be dangerous - the situation is grave and the odds are against them - sounds like fun... TOS Uhura was highly professional and damn cool with it and I don't want the 21st century version to be a total girl (no offence) while on duty just because she's in a relationship with one of the other characters. Let her be an officer.

We know that Kirk wanted Spock along because of the information he was withholding about the Jellyfish but seriously, just the two of them beaming across on such a vital mission? Uhura's presence was actually quite important - without her the crucial mission depended on Spock being able to understand Romulan because it was a bit like Vulcan . They made a point of saying Uhura was fluent in order to involve her in the story earlier and then 'forgot' so that the boys could save the day on their own. Spock had to save Kirk once and Pike had to save him the second time. Uhura could easily have fulfilled that role and got a few licks in and McCoy's presence would have been justified too given Pike's fragile condition. It was a missed opportunity to utilise all 4 of the traditional TOS leads (although Uhura's role was filled by Rand in the early TOS episodes).

 

[Glacial]

The Nokia ringtone and Beastie Boys song were totally unbelievable.

I mean, are we seriously expected to believe that a man who owns a 300-year-old car, which he keeps in flawless condition, might be interested in OTHER retro things? Ridiculous.

 

[Shatnertage]

For me, the iconic Spock will always be SHOUTING [/smart ass]

If I can be serious for a moment, I always thought the whole point of TOS Spock was that the guy who went on and on about he didn't feel emotions/controlled them tightly was, hands down, the most emotional guy on the entire ship. Why else would McCoy's needling get under his skin so much?

That was why Nimoy's portrayal was so brilliant--his Spock was just seething with emotions.

 

[UFO]

For me, the iconic Spock will always be SHOUTING [/smart ass]

If I can be serious for a moment, I always thought the whole point of TOS Spock was that the guy who went on and on about he didn't feel emotions/controlled them tightly was, hands down, the most emotional guy on the entire ship. Why else would McCoy's needling get under his skin so much?

That was why Nimoy's portrayal was so brilliant--his Spock was just seething with emotions.

Now you have me worried. I always thought it was Spock who got under McCoy's skin!

Well I guess the banter does indicate a two way street. Since he is part Vulcan I can't deny he has very strong emotions despite his usually successful attempts to suppress them. Certainly the writers of TOS had some fun with that.

Maybe I'm defending his triumph over those emotions, particularly at important times when it could make a real difference. It just seems some people want to degrade what I see as a perfectly legitimate Vulcan response to life and their cultural problems. Despite being half human Spock choose that Vulcan solution and to start second guessing that now seems like a mistake on a number of levels to me. Not the least of which is the character's potentially unique perspective and contribution to the success of the Enterprise.

In this new outing Serek tells Spock that his mother may have said: Do not try to control your anger (towards Nero). A one off, or a "bad" precedent? While Spock Prime tells him something along the lines of: On this occasion, put aside logic. Do what feels right. That sounds more like a one off, if a really slippery slope. But perhaps it was unnecessarily anyway. If NuSpock can be in two places at the same time, it might be logical for him to stay in Star Fleet?

 

[Devon]

Which writers are you referring to? Writers of TOS or of ST 2009? The reason "The Cage" Spock isn't remembered is because Spock was rewritten and it was never used again.

But yet the smiling enthusastic Spock is still part of Spock's and Trek's history. This Spock is in the same time frame as that Spock. That can not be denied.

I see what you are saying, but given we know that Spock is from a pilot where he was not intended to be the same character, your "victory" is due to a technicality.

It's still canon, and a significant canon reference for a major character. Logically since Vulcans have to learn to control their emotions then there is absolutely nothing which makes anything the nuSpock did to be "incorrect" or "not right" or whatever at this point in his life. Someone can argue "Well the old Spock didn't do that" but then this isn't the old Spock yet. Even the "in control" Spock lost control sometimes, without any magical mind spells.

 

[zar]

I see what you are saying, but given we know that Spock is from a pilot where he was not intended to be the same character, your "victory" is due to a technicality.

It's still canon, and a significant canon reference for a major character.

A clip show based on a canceled pilot is not a "significant reference" for anything.

 

[Shazam!]

Remember, this Spock is from a little earlier time than we saw on TOS; he's more shouty here. And apparently, (& logically, imo) more hormonal.

He'll grow more into the character we remember as it goes along.

He's also in another Universe and is a different character entirely. He's no more Prime Spock than Intendent Kira is Prime Kira.

 

[Gojira]

Remember, this Spock is from a little earlier time than we saw on TOS; he's more shouty here. And apparently, (& logically, imo) more hormonal.

He'll grow more into the character we remember as it goes along.

He's also in another Universe and is a different character entirely. He's no more Prime Spock than Intendent Kira is Prime Kira.

I cannot see NuSpock as being from another Universe. In that way the movie doesn't work for me. I think this movie takes place in the same universe we have always loved and that the time line has been permanently altered.

 

[Gojira]

I see what you are saying, but given we know that Spock is from a pilot where he was not intended to be the same character, your "victory" is due to a technicality.

It's still canon, and a significant canon reference for a major character.

A clip show based on a canceled pilot is not a "significant reference" for anything.

It is canon. The Menagerie Parts I & II which contain clips of the original unaired pilot is as solid a canon reference as anything else in Star Trek.

 

[Commodore_Rook]

The more I watch NuTrek, the more I am warming up to it. My only main problem with the story is why is Nero so hell bent on blaming Spock for the distruction of Romulus?? Spock didn't cause the Nova, he was trying to stop it!

 

[Devon]

It's still canon, and a significant canon reference for a major character.

A clip show based on a canceled pilot is not a "significant reference" for anything.

It is canon. The Menagerie Parts I & II which contain clips of the original unaired pilot is as solid a canon reference as anything else in Star Trek.

Exactly. And also the second pilot, "Where No Man Has Gone Before," wasn't canceled. So it's still canon, still significant to the character's history.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The more I watch NuTrek, the more I am warming up to it. My only main problem with the story is why is Nero so hell bent on blaming Spock for the distruction of Romulus?? Spock didn't cause the Nova, he was trying to stop it!

But Nero doesn't believe that. He thinks Spock failed intentionally, and that it was all a Federation plot - that "the Federation stood by and did nothing, while [his] planet broke in half"

Romulus and the Federation were enemies for 200 years, and although they made peace towards the end of DS9 and at the end of Nemesis, I can see how someone who'd just lost his wife, unborn child and world might suspect foul play.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Remember, this Spock is from a little earlier time than we saw on TOS; he's more shouty here. And apparently, (& logically, imo) more hormonal.

He'll grow more into the character we remember as it goes along.

He's also in another Universe and is a different character entirely. He's no more Prime Spock than Intendent Kira is Prime Kira.

An entirely different character? I don't think so. They remade scenes from TAS "Yesteryear" and played out his backstory from TOS "Journey to Babel". Kirk's life was totally derailed by Nero's arrival, Spock's likely didn't change until he entered Starfleet.

I don't think he'll become TOS Spock, but he'll stay much closer and truer to that character than, say, Robin Curtis' recast Saavik did with Kirstie Alley's original.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Spock's life was changed when the Enterprise was not built earlier. Perhaps even earlier than that.

 

[CaptainStoner]

Remember, this Spock is from a little earlier time than we saw on TOS; he's more shouty here. And apparently, (& logically, imo) more hormonal.

He'll grow more into the character we remember as it goes along.

He's also in another Universe and is a different character entirely. He's no more Prime Spock than Intendent Kira is Prime Kira.

I cannot see NuSpock as being from another Universe. In that way the movie doesn't work for me. I think this movie takes place in the same universe we have always loved and that the time line has been permanently altered.

Why does it not work as a parallel universe story? Do you have problems with the numerous other stories of this kind in Star Trek, or is it just this film?
There were several things I didn't like about XI, but the premise that it's a parallel universe is isn't one of them. From lens flare to Sulu's katana to Spock-Uhura, to the radically different Kirk, it's not a big stretch.
Ultimately though, it's splitting hairs where the new films' future is concerned. Parallel universe, or radically altered timeline, it still equates to a different universe than the previous one. I just can't understand why anyone would choose to think the entire TOS-TNG+ timeline is wiped, especially when the film makes it abundantly clear that this isn't so.

 

[Gojira]

He's also in another Universe and is a different character entirely. He's no more Prime Spock than Intendent Kira is Prime Kira.

I cannot see NuSpock as being from another Universe. In that way the movie doesn't work for me. I think this movie takes place in the same universe we have always loved and that the time line has been permanently altered.

Why does it not work as a parallel universe story? Do you have problems with the numerous other stories of this kind in Star Trek, or is it just this film?
There were several things I didn't like about XI, but the premise that it's a parallel universe is isn't one of them. From lens flare to Sulu's katana to Spock-Uhura, to the radically different Kirk, it's not a big stretch.
Ultimately though, it's splitting hairs where the new films' future is concerned. Parallel universe, or radically altered timeline, it still equates to a different universe than the previous one. I just can't understand why anyone would choose to think the entire TOS-TNG+ timeline is wiped, especially when the film makes it abundantly clear that this isn't so.

I have been involved in this debate before and some people feel this movie clearly establishes that it takes place in a parallel universe while others feel that it takes place in the same universe but the time line has been irrevocably altered.

Suffice it to say I fall firmly in the latter category. So instead of reopening that can or worms I have come to realize that there is enough evidence to support both arguments and in the end it is a personal choice how one looks at the movie and it is a moot point because future writers are not limited by this movie and can go in a number of directions including ending this timeline/parallel universe rendering this movie obsolete.

 

[Pauln6]

We've seen Spock exhibit emotional reactions when his guard is down so we know that he has them and that he struggles to contain them. This is incontrovertable canon. He reacted when a ship full of Vulcans some distance away was destroyed so why anybody would assume he would not be affected by the destruction of billions of lives, his homeworld, AND his mother, all right in front of him is silly. Plus whatever the changes to the timeline, this version of Spock has embraced a relationship with a human woman. We see in STIV that Amanda can and did influence Spock so why should a close, long term involvement with Uhura, a self-confessed emotional woman (in TOS), not affect his reactions too?

In my view, the characterisations, with the exception of Scotty, were the film's main strength, followed by its pace, excitement, and energy. It was some of the dafter plot elements that let it down a bit.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

Yeah, let's ignore the fact that he had just.... oh wait, I just said all of that. Paul, come on. Lose your entire species and actually watch your mum fall to her death and then try lecturing Spock about how illogical he's behaving. All things considered, he was very poised and very logical.

A full human would have been in such a bloody huge state of shock it would have completely incapacitated them.

Comparing this situation to anything else is unfair. Uhura, in this case, was the only female loved one left in his life. It doesn't take Freud to make the connection between his display of affection and the recent loss of his mother.

As for her staying on the Enterprise.... what does that have to do with Spock being emotional?

Oh I have almost no problem with Spock's behaviour throughout the movie and I agree with much of what you say (I particularly liked the scene with Uhura in the Turbolift) but the thread is a bit more general in its criticisms. I disliked the way Spock booted Kirk off the ship and I disliked the exchange with Kirk when they chose to blow up Nero but otherwise it wasn't too bad.

However, I disliked the scene in the transporter room - it was unnecessarily mushy for my tastes. Starfleet officers should not be kissing each other goodbye in that way while on duty. Every mission can be dangerous - the situation is grave and the odds are against them - sounds like fun... TOS Uhura was highly professional and damn cool with it and I don't want the 21st century version to be a total girl (no offence) while on duty just because she's in a relationship with one of the other characters. Let her be an officer.

We know that Kirk wanted Spock along because of the information he was withholding about the Jellyfish but seriously, just the two of them beaming across on such a vital mission? Uhura's presence was actually quite important - without her the crucial mission depended on Spock being able to understand Romulan because it was a bit like Vulcan . They made a point of saying Uhura was fluent in order to involve her in the story earlier and then 'forgot' so that the boys could save the day on their own. Spock had to save Kirk once and Pike had to save him the second time. Uhura could easily have fulfilled that role and got a few licks in and McCoy's presence would have been justified too given Pike's fragile condition. It was a missed opportunity to utilise all 4 of the traditional TOS leads (although Uhura's role was filled by Rand in the early TOS episodes).

Aaaaah. The proverbial penny dropeth.

Yes, I agree. I hadn't actually given any of this any thought at all. Thanks a lot for making me use my brain, mate.

 

[CaptainStoner]

I cannot see NuSpock as being from another Universe. In that way the movie doesn't work for me. I think this movie takes place in the same universe we have always loved and that the time line has been permanently altered.

Why does it not work as a parallel universe story? Do you have problems with the numerous other stories of this kind in Star Trek, or is it just this film?
There were several things I didn't like about XI, but the premise that it's a parallel universe is isn't one of them. From lens flare to Sulu's katana to Spock-Uhura, to the radically different Kirk, it's not a big stretch.
Ultimately though, it's splitting hairs where the new films' future is concerned. Parallel universe, or radically altered timeline, it still equates to a different universe than the previous one. I just can't understand why anyone would choose to think the entire TOS-TNG+ timeline is wiped, especially when the film makes it abundantly clear that this isn't so.

I have been involved in this debate before and some people feel this movie clearly establishes that it takes place in a parallel universe while others feel that it takes place in the same universe but the time line has been irrevocably altered.

Suffice it to say I fall firmly in the latter category. So instead of reopening that can or worms I have come to realize that there is enough evidence to support both arguments and in the end it is a personal choice how one looks at the movie and it is a moot point because future writers are not limited by this movie and can go in a number of directions including ending this timeline/parallel universe rendering this movie obsolete.

Well. STXI was written as a parallel universe ST origins story. That's what the movie was intended and presented as. So there is the story that was written, and there are reinterpretations. And as you say, future films may reinterpret this further. ST has been reinterpreted many times, especially in the films. Still STXI, as originally intended, is a parallel universe story.