Why is there a statue of Chang in the Klingon hall of warriors?

[Yistaan]

Chang, by contrast, is a Klingon war hero BEFORE his treason [see Klingon Academy] and died in an epic battle against Captain Kirk. He is a figure with panache and the sort of guy who fits in with the Klingon sense of superiority.

And it helps to remember Chang is a TOS Klingon not a TNG Klingon. Things like stealth, treachery, cunning, and intrigue are things they celebrate rather than condemn.

As far as Klingon Academy goes though, Chang is implied to have known that the Khitomer conspiracy was dishonorable, even "protecting" his protege by disassociating with him immediately beforehand.

Torlek: General... Chang, I know that you blocked my nomination to be the next Military Adviser. So why this friendly farewell? We both know you still harbor a grudge for my actions at the Tal'Ihnor nebula.

Chang: [shaking his head] No. Time has made me realize that you were simply doing what I had taught you to do,
Torlek. You conducted yourself as a true warrior, and you did so superbly. I bear you no grudge. It would be best, however, if you left the Empire for some time. We stand at the brink of a difficult new future. This future will discard its old heroes and raise new ones. You are the finest student I have ever taught. You must claim your proper place in this future, while I must step aside. In the past, you served me as a loyal warrior, a friend, and my conscience when things were at their worst. But where I go now, you cannot follow... and I will need no conscience but my own. [looks grim for a moment, then looks up and smiles] Farewell, Torlek, son of Ro'vagh. [turns to walk away]

Torlek: "Conscience"? [Chang stops and turns back] What have you resigned yourself to, Chang?

Chang: Some rise by sin, and some by virtue fall.

Also Chang dying in an epic battle against Kirk probably doesn't do much to undo his previous dishonorable acts for the Klingons. We know Klingons like Koloth respected Kirk as a warrior and Chang only fought Kirk after dishonorably framing him for a crime and trying to get him assassinated on Rura Penthe instead of facing Kirk himself like an honorable warrior would. Yes, he faced down Kirk later but only after said plans had failed. Duras also died in an epic battle against Worf but Klingons were still speaking poorly of him afterwards because of all his dishonorable acts before his fatal duel with Worf.

 

[Charles Phipps]

As far as Klingon Academy goes though, Chang is implied to have known that the Khitomer conspiracy was dishonorable, even "protecting" his protege by disassociating with him immediately beforehand.

Torlek: General... Chang, I know that you blocked my nomination to be the next Military Adviser. So why this friendly farewell? We both know you still harbor a grudge for my actions at the Tal'Ihnor nebula.

Chang: [shaking his head] No. Time has made me realize that you were simply doing what I had taught you to do,
Torlek. You conducted yourself as a true warrior, and you did so superbly. I bear you no grudge. It would be best, however, if you left the Empire for some time. We stand at the brink of a difficult new future. This future will discard its old heroes and raise new ones. You are the finest student I have ever taught. You must claim your proper place in this future, while I must step aside. In the past, you served me as a loyal warrior, a friend, and my conscience when things were at their worst. But where I go now, you cannot follow... and I will need no conscience but my own. [looks grim for a moment, then looks up and smiles] Farewell, Torlek, son of Ro'vagh. [turns to walk away]

Torlek: "Conscience"? [Chang stops and turns back] What have you resigned yourself to, Chang?

Chang: Some rise by sin, and some by virtue fall.

Also Chang dying in an epic battle against Kirk probably doesn't do much to undo his previous dishonorable acts for the Klingons. We know Klingons like Koloth respected Kirk as a warrior and Chang only fought Kirk after dishonorably framing him for a crime and trying to get him assassinated on Rura Penthe instead of facing Kirk himself like an honorable warrior would. Yes, he faced down Kirk later but only after said plans had failed.

While entirely true, the point I'm making is the difference between the Klingon Code of Conduct as it's meant to be followed and the reality of the Great Houses and how the Klingons present themselves. To make an obvious real world comparison, the teachings of Rabbi Joshua Ben Joseph (Jesus) and his followers. Chang was remarkably self-reflective for a Klingon and well-educated in alien arts but, ironically, the hardliner against Gorkon's peace plan. That doesn't mean other people wouldn't valorize the acts that he, himself, found dishonorable.

Another RL example is the 47 Ronin that became a heroic tale of brotherhood and honor despite the fact that the event it was based on was noted as a premeditated act of mass murder.

Duras also died in an epic battle against Worf but Klingons were still speaking poorly of him afterwards because of all his dishonorable acts before his fatal duel with Worf.

In fact, this is a good example as Duras is murdered for killing Worf's mate and suspicion of poisoning the previous Chancellor among many-many other crimes. However, when his bastard son is presented for the Chancellorship, more than half of the Klingon High Council chooses to side with him. Gowron, despite winning the Arbitership, is definitely the underdog in the political process.

Another example is Kor, who we know is an all-round scumbag but still widely viewed as a legendary hero.

 

[Yistaan]

While entirely true, the point I'm making is the difference between the Klingon Code of Conduct as it's meant to be followed and the reality of the Great Houses and how the Klingons present themselves. To make an obvious real world comparison, the teachings of Rabbi Joshua Ben Joseph (Jesus) and his followers. Chang was remarkably self-reflective for a Klingon and well-educated in alien arts but, ironically, the hardliner against Gorkon's peace plan. That doesn't mean other people wouldn't valorize the acts that he, himself, found dishonorable.

Another RL example is the 47 Ronin that became a heroic tale of brotherhood and honor despite the fact that the event it was based on was noted as a premeditated act of mass murder.



In fact, this is a good example as Duras is murdered for killing Worf's mate and suspicion of poisoning the previous Chancellor among many-many other crimes. However, when his bastard son is presented for the Chancellorship, more than half of the Klingon High Council chooses to side with him. Gowron, despite winning the Arbitership, is definitely the underdog in the political process.

Another example is Kor, who we know is an all-round scumbag but still widely viewed as a legendary hero.

As you may recall on our discussions on theforce.net (where I'm sidv88) I'm not the biggest fan of religion so those arguments don't do much for me. The Chancellor seems to have a lot of power, as stated in how Gowron singlehandedly ousted the House of Mogh. I still think Gowron put up the Chang statue. If it predated Azetbur, she'd have had it taken down, and if it wasn't built by her term she certainly wouldn't build it.

 

[Charles Phipps]

As you may recall on our discussions on theforce.net (where I'm sidv88) I'm not the biggest fan of religion so those arguments don't do much for me. The Chancellor seems to have a lot of power, as stated in how Gowron singlehandedly ousted the House of Mogh. I still think Gowron put up the Chang statue. If it predated Azetbur, she'd have had it taken down, and if it wasn't built by her term she certainly wouldn't build it.

Gowron could have done it but so could have any of the Klingon Chancellors following her. I agree that Azetbur wouldn't have.

It's not an overly complicated argument re: ideology and my reference to a certain philosopher. It's, "A lot of people don't follow their professed code of ethics very well despite claiming to."

 

[Yistaan]

Gowron could have done it but so could have any of the Klingon Chancellors following her./ I agree that Azetbur wouldn't have.

Since Klingon Academy was brought up in this thread, I find it interesting that that game has Chancellor Lorak in power for 31 years from 2260 to 2291, followed by Gorkon: https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Lorak .

Before Lorak was Durak who was Chancellor from some unspecified year until 2260: https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Durak . We know (extremely minor/trivial spoilers for Discovery)

Spoiler

from Discovery that L'Rell was Chancellor up till at least 2257, so Durak may be thrown out of even Klingon Academy fans' headcanon depending on how Strange New Worlds handles Klingon Chancellorship through 2260 (if it's covered at all).

Interestingly as K'mpec is stated in TNG to be the longest ever serving Klingon Chancellor as of 2367, he had to going by Klingon Academy continuity (to be in power longer than Lorak) been chancellor since 2336 at least. That means K'mpec went through the Romulan attack at Narenda III and the Khitomer massacre in his chancellorship, and despite his friendliness to the Federation in TNG would have broken the Khitomer accords if the Enterprise C didn't show up for Narenda. Interestingly the Trek novels ignore Klingon Academy entirely and have K'mpec become chancellor only after both Romulan attacks.

As K'mpec was a student of Chang's (he's in the Klingon Academy game), it's entirely possible he put up the Chang statue to appease certain groups (he was involved in the coverup of House Duras' crimes after all).

 

[publiusr]

I doubt he will ever have a statue. Leaders who are boring but give stability don’t always give love.

 

[Qonundrum]

In "Apocalypse Rising" there is a statue of General Chang (from ST VI) in the Hall of Warriors.

Why the fresh hell would they actually do that? Chang conspired to assassinate Chancellor Gorkon. I'd think this would be a grossly dishonorable act.

Quite a few reasons other than what most people will lean on.

Apart from a couple other possibilities, including prominently Maurice's mention of fan service. Cuz that's all everyone wants regardless.

 

[diankra]

There are statues of both Charles I and Oliver Cromwell in London, even though the latter had the former beheaded for treason.

 

[Kor]

And then Oliver Cromwell's body was exhumed and beheaded posthumously.

Kor

 

[Timo]

...I wonder if Klingons bother with stuff like that. I mean, yeah, the body is but a shell - but you can have an awful lot of fun with it after it ceases to fight back.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kor]

The notion of "the body is just empty shell" came from TNG. In the TOS movie era, Klingons were said to practice mummification, indicating that they had some kind of reverence or special respect for the body of the deceased.

Kor

 

[Timo]

No doubt there would be different beliefs and factions, if not simultaneously, then in succession. The empty-shell folks seemed to go for a Kahlessianism revival of some sort: they wanted to overturn K'Mpec's complacent and collaborationist ways first and foremost, but perhaps they also found fault in the ways of the TOS Klingons?

And perhaps the TOS Klingons were inspired by T'Kumva, who collected and venerated dead bodies as a hobby? What T'Kumva preached was not particularly close to what the TNG era folks practiced, either before or after K'Mpec.

Possibly the empty-shell puritanism is the genuine old thing. Possibly it is but revisionism itself. Might be the ENT Klingons practiced it, what with looking so much like TNG ones otherwise.

Erecting of statues would not appear to be contrary to any of the beliefs, though. Old heroes are to be remembered, either in likeness or then in some sort of larger-than-life storytelling, and statues are perfect for both.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Charles Phipps]

And perhaps the TOS Klingons were inspired by T'Kumva, who collected and venerated dead bodies as a hobby? What T'Kumva preached was not particularly close to what the TNG era folks practiced, either before or after K'Mpec.

I like thinking that the ship is a Hur'q ship and the body is a shell thing is a modern belief.

So for all his fundamentalism, he's literally flying around a Klingon Pyramid for all intents and purposes.

 

[Farscape One]

I was wondering if it was a Hur'q ship, because I think Klingons got their interstellar travel and other technologies from them. (Or at least, based a LOT of their later designs and technology on it.)

 

[Crewman6]

The same reason there is a statue of Churchill in London, his people consider him a hero

Churchill didn't try to murder Chamberlain, though, did he?

 

[Charles Phipps]

Like I said, all the Confederate statues in the United States make me think there's nothing unrealistic about Chang being lionized.

 

[Timo]

...Although the fact that there are so few of the things does suggest they get rotated as per the way the wind is blowing, and thus may tell something about Gowron here.

And it's fun to speculate on what would have made Chang revered. Was it his rebellion against the plan to down-escalate? Or something he did in his putative youth, with the long hair and all, so that the scheming in TUC merely detracts from that original fame but doesn't obscure it? If his achievements elevate him in the Gowron era, perhaps they had to do with Gowron's platform of fighting Romulan influences in the Empire or avenging Cardassian wrongs or generally reigniting the war torches? Etc.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Timo]

I was wondering if it was a Hur'q ship, because I think Klingons got their interstellar travel and other technologies from them. (Or at least, based a LOT of their later designs and technology on it.)

That's a noncanon take on it, though.

In the episodes themselves, the Hur'q never were conquerors or oppressors, and never gave anything to the Klingons. Instead, they were characterized as raiders who came in, looted, and ran. We don't know if the Klingons at that time already had warp drives and disruptor cannon, or just swords and walls - it being rather unhelpful there that Klingons still have swords and walls when they fly around with warp drives and fire disruptor cannon!

The Ship of the Dead had some corpses bolted on that were thousands of years old. The age of the ship is unknown, though, save for it having been old in T'Kumva's youth already. But the ornate style is still very much in fashion as DSC unfolds, so perhaps "ancient" isn't a good bet after all?

What the ship exemplifies is the fact that Klingons change. Within a generation or two, their ships change, their alliances shift, their very bodies change. It would be difficult to accept their religion never changing... Unless that's the one anchor that holds the whole thing together, and given the strife that emerges whenever we see religious interpretations being made, the anchor theory doesn't really convince me. For all we know, some in every era treat bodies as shells, others mummify them, and yet others consider them a delicacy.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[dupersuper]

The notion of "the body is just empty shell" came from TNG. In the TOS movie era, Klingons were said to practice mummification, indicating that they had some kind of reverence or special respect for the body of the deceased.

Kor

When were they said to do that?

 

[Timo]

"Firstborn". But that was just a bunch of entrepreneurs claiming they had Molor's mummified head for show or sale at a price - the close equivalent of folks today peddling old Egyptian mummies, even if Molor is a couple of thousand years younger. I don't see any suggestion of a continuing practice in that.

In the TOS movies, all we got was the mention of a Klingon mummification glyph in Spock's re-education material in ST4. Might have been even older than Molor. Or the Old Kingdom.

Timo Saloniemi