Who Is Susan Foreman?

[FalTorPan]

I'm not arguing that there actually are pre-Hartnell Doctors. I'm arguing that "The Brain of Morbius" offers evidence which suggests pre-Hartnell Doctors. All other stories which touch on this issue offer evidence that Hartnell's Doctor is the first. Considering all evidence in all the episodes, I fully accept that Hartnell's Doctor is the first. Having said that, denying that "The Brain of Morbius" suggests pre-Hartnell Doctors is like denying that the 1996 telefilm suggests that the Doctor is half-human.

 

[Chaos Descending]

... denying that "The Brain of Morbius" suggests pre-Hartnell Doctors is like denying that the 1996 telefilm suggests that the Doctor is half-human.

This is a terrible comparison. In the 1996 Doctor Who telefilm, the Doctor and the Master both state in no uncertain terms that the Doctor is half-human. Nothing was suggested, it was flat out and boldly stated.

In "The Brain of Morbius", nothing whatsoever was stated about pre-Hartnell Doctors. It's something that has to be inferred.

No, not similar situations at all.

 

[timelord1010]

I read in a interview somewhere (and I will find it) that some of the images on the screen during the mind battle were of people who worked on this story and was not meant to show The Doctor's other lives. I believe it was in Dr. Who Monthly but here is a link to the Doctor Who Wiki where they state that the other faces could have been the other lives of Morbius. Look at the section labeled MYTHS:

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Brain_of_Morbius

I always wondered how much of a timelord do you need to regenerate? He had his brain, why couldn't they clone a body for Morbius?

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

This is a terrible comparison. In the 1996 Doctor Who telefilm, the Doctor and the Master both state in no uncertain terms that the Doctor is half-human. Nothing was suggested, it was flat out and boldly stated.

In "The Brain of Morbius", nothing whatsoever was stated about pre-Hartnell Doctors. It's something that has to be inferred.

Only if for some strange reason you think that images carry no information on their own.

In the 1996 telefilm, the Doctor states that he is half-human. In "The Brain of Morbius", pre-Hartnell Doctors are shown to us. It's not ambiguous, it's right there on the screen. There was no need for Tom Baker to wink at the camera and say: "you know what? The old grumpy Doctor was not my first incarnation! Write this down, Mister Canon!"

It doesn't matter now because obviously Doctor Who's loose continuity eventually went a different way, but yes, there is evidence that there were pre-Hartnell Doctors.

 

[OmahaStar]

It doesn't matter now because obviously Doctor Who's loose continuity eventually went a different way, but yes, there is evidence that there were pre-Hartnell Doctors.

No. There isn't. The other images shown were all from Morbius. Not the Doctor. End of story. Move along, thanks.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

In "The Brain of Morbius", pre-Hartnell Doctors are shown to us.

No, just 'a bunch of people are shown to us'. It's not like they're captioned or anything like that. The episode does not say that those were Doctors. It doesn't say who they are AT ALL. But other scenes in other episodes, such as the one I am about to quote, do say who those images *aren't*.

The other images shown were all from Morbius.

Agreed.

Also, I am inclined to trust the First Doctor (in 'The Five Doctors') when he specifically says that he is the original. This is not a Doctor who is prone to lying or indeed any kind of hyperbole. If he says he's the first, then he must be.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

That's what I've always believed and I was surprised when I first heard people suggesting the reverse on message boards several years after the first time I saw the story. *shrug*

 

[gastrof]

...I am inclined to trust the First Doctor (in 'The Five Doctors') when he specifically says that he is the original. This is not a Doctor who is prone to lying or indeed any kind of hyperbole. If he says he's the first, then he must be.

I also understood that the other faces during the "Time Lord Wrestling Match" were earlier versions of the Doctor. Morbius even says to him as they flash on the screen "HOW long have you LIVED?"

Thing is, Susan's grandfather does say he's the original Doctor in THE FIVE DOCTORS. This leaves us with the need to change our understanding of what the images on the screen and Morbius' comment/question meant.

Of course, when Susan's grandfather says that, he doesn't explain why his own face is different than it was when he was traveling with Susan...

 

[Chaos Descending]

In "The Brain of Morbius", pre-Hartnell Doctors are shown to us. It's not ambiguous, it's right there on the screen. There was no need for Tom Baker to wink at the camera and say: "you know what? The old grumpy Doctor was not my first incarnation! Write this down, Mister Canon!"

Some people, who were most obviously Morbius (verified by the subsequently proven fact there there were no pre-Hartnell Doctors) were shown to us, with no explanation given either at the time or since as to exactly who they were.

 

[matthunter]

If we're bringing the telemovie into this, it's worth pointing out that McGann's voiceover at the beginning explicitly states that the movie begins as he's approaching the end of his "seventh life"...

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

In "The Brain of Morbius", pre-Hartnell Doctors are shown to us.

No, just 'a bunch of people are shown to us'. It's not like they're captioned or anything like that. The episode does not say that those were Doctors. It doesn't say who they are AT ALL.

You're right, as I said, it is shown, it is not stated. Thinking that relevant information can only be carried through words is awfully naive, in my opinion. We don't need captions to see that the sky is blue.

The way the sequence plays, what we are shown is quite obviously a gallery of the Doctor's previous incarnations, in reverse order. In that sequence we see faces we have never seen, i.e. regenerations which happened before what we thought was the first Doctor.

Of course it doesn't jibe with anything else that has been shown in the series before or since, which is the reason that lots of Doctor Who fans feel compelled to rationalize it away, but that's all that is, a rationalization to make all the pieces fit together. It's only relevant if you're interested in pretending that there is such a thing as continuity in Doctor Who, though.

 

[captcalhoun]

watching that, it's incredibly ambiguos as to who those faces are. given the way the Doctor suddenly seems to win, it seems more likely that tehy're Morbius' regenerations than the Doctor's to me.

 

[DWF]

watching that, it's incredibly ambiguos as to who those faces are. given the way the Doctor suddenly seems to win, it seems more likely that tehy're Morbius' regenerations than the Doctor's to me.

That was always my feeling, there's nothing onscreen to suggest that those the faces of Doctors previous to William Hartnell.

 

[FalTorPan]

shown[/I], it is not stated. Thinking that relevant information can only be carried through words is awfully naive, in my opinion. We don't need captions to see that the sky is blue.

The way the sequence plays, what we are shown is quite obviously a gallery of the Doctor's previous incarnations, in reverse order. In that sequence we see faces we have never seen, i.e. regenerations which happened before what we thought was the first Doctor.

Of course it doesn't jibe with anything else that has been shown in the series before or since, which is the reason that lots of Doctor Who fans feel compelled to rationalize it away, but that's all that is, a rationalization to make all the pieces fit together. It's only relevant if you're interested in pretending that there is such a thing as continuity in Doctor Who, though.

Agreed 100%.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

That was always my feeling, there's nothing onscreen to suggest that those the faces of Doctors previous to William Hartnell.

No offense meant, but I think you're being deliberately obtuse. Yes, there is something onscreen that does more than suggest that: we see the face of Tom Baker, then the face of Jon Pertwee, then Patrick Troughton, then William Hartnell, then other guys we've never seen before, while Morbius is saying "how long have you lived?" and "back, back to your beginning!". It's like one of those "complete the series" things in I.Q. tests. We're being very explicitly and very deliberately lead to think that those other faces are previous incarnations of the Doctor.

The only reason why some people claim they can't see it is because they can't see beyond the rationalization that is necessary to make sure that "Morbius" fits into the larger Doctor Who canvas. Some fans are like dramatic antibodies, desperately trying to fill in anything that looks like a plothole. Me, I don't care about continuity, especially in Doctor Who, and I'm happy to watch this scene for what it is, knowing full well that the series has gone in a different direction since then.

 

[Andrew_Kearley]

The only reason why some people claim they can't see it is because they can't see beyond the rationalization that is necessary to make sure that "Morbius" fits into the larger Doctor Who canvas. Some fans are like dramatic antibodies, desperately trying to fill in anything that looks like a plothole. Me, I don't care about continuity, especially in Doctor Who, and I'm happy to watch this scene for what it is, knowing full well that the series has gone in a different direction since then.

That is easily the most rational thing anyone has ever said about the mind-screen faces.

 

[DWF]

That was always my feeling, there's nothing onscreen to suggest that those the faces of Doctors previous to William Hartnell.

No offense meant, but I think you're being deliberately obtuse. Yes, there is something onscreen that does more than suggest that: we see the face of Tom Baker, then the face of Jon Pertwee, then Patrick Troughton, then William Hartnell, then other guys we've never seen before, while Morbius is saying "how long have you lived?" and "back, back to your beginning!". It's like one of those "complete the series" things in I.Q. tests. We're being very explicitly and very deliberately lead to think that those other faces are previous incarnations of the Doctor.

The only reason why some people claim they can't see it is because they can't see beyond the rationalization that is necessary to make sure that "Morbius" fits into the larger Doctor Who canvas. Some fans are like dramatic antibodies, desperately trying to fill in anything that looks like a plothole. Me, I don't care about continuity, especially in Doctor Who, and I'm happy to watch this scene for what it is, knowing full well that the series has gone in a different direction since then.

And yet not long after we see the other faces does Morbius lose.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/classic/episodeguide/brainmorbius/detail.shtml

One of the story's main talking points is the climactic mind-bending contest, chiefly because it seems to contradict all other Doctor Who lore in indicating that the Doctor had eight previously unseen incarnations before the William Hartnell one. This certainly appears to have been what the production team intended to suggest at the time, although an equally valid alternative interpretation is that the images in question are actually those of Morbius's earlier selves - it is, after all, Morbius who loses the contest, the aim of which is apparently to force one's opponent back mentally to the point of their birth, and if he does seem to be gloating in triumph when the images appear this can presumably be attributed to his unsound state of mind. At the end of the day, maybe all that matters is that the scene provides a dramatic and intriguing resolution to the action.

I don't see what to be gained by rying to insult people to accept another view point. And I can't see the Doctor being entire useless in turning the game against Morbius.

 

[Andrew_Kearley]

And yet not long after we see the other faces does Morbius lose.

Morbius does not lose. He wins, but the increased strain on his brain overloads the electrics in his braincase. The Doctor is clearly the loser - he's left practically comatose and on the verge of death.

 

[DWF]

And yet not long after we see the other faces does Morbius lose.

Morbius does not lose. He wins, but the increased strain on his brain overloads the electrics in his braincase. The Doctor is clearly the loser - he's left practically comatose and on the verge of death.

That's your opinion not mine.

 

[Andrew_Kearley]

Obviously.