Who Is Susan Foreman?

[Guy Gardener]

She meets up with 8 in the audio, but it's not out yet.

Thing I recall from the novel of the five doctors was Susan "thinking" about her own children and that she was just supposed to have popped out fro a quick nip tot he shops as if the entire demolishment of the earth by the dalek Invasion had already been reversed to the point that their modern day could be mistook for the late 20th century.

odd.

but he always said he was going to come back.

I had a thought.

What if it was all a trap, the daleks pretended to invade earth to turn it into a battle RV, just to deceive Susan into falling in love and staying behind? And still, we have to acknowedge the (brief) reversal of history in day or the daleks that the Doctor lost that fight in 2158.

 

[Andrew_Kearley]

Thing I recall from the novel of the five doctors was Susan "thinking" about her own children and that she was just supposed to have popped out fro a quick nip tot he shops as if the entire demolishment of the earth by the dalek Invasion had already been reversed to the point that their modern day could be mistook for the late 20th century.

It says she's on her way "to market" rather than the shops - although it also says that London is being rebuilt with new "gleaming buildings", bomb sites being cleared and new parks and gardens.

 

[Starkers]

Well the Master was definitely older than the Doctor in terms of regenerations...

How do we know this? We know that the shriveled husk from "The Deadly Assassin" was his final form (the "13th Master"), having used up all his regenerations, but I don't recall anything that said (for example) which version Roger Delgado was playing. He could have been the first, or the 12th, or any in between.

A Time Lord could go through all of his/her regenerations by merely having a bad couple of weeks. So calculating ages by counting regenerations really doesn't work.

I know, I was only kidding hence the comment about the Master going through his regens quicker by having accidents around heavy machinery.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I have always viewed the other faces seen in Brain of Morbius as being other incarnations of Morbius, not the Doctor.

That's how I've always looked at it. I get frustrated when others insist that those faces are The Doctor's. But whatever.

 

[Garth Rockett]

So three stories out of 200 odd, that's not very good odds. When put against all those stories when they don't say anything about it one way or the other.

That's still three stories that explicitly state Hartnell was the first, as compared to zero that explicitly state he wasn't. There's far more onscreen evidence that the Doctor's name is actually "Doctor Who" than there is that there were pre-Hartnell incarnations.

The argument from silence is a weak argument; you could argue all sorts of things about the world of Doctor Who from that point of view. Hell's bells, there's only about three stories out of 200 that state that Adric died, the rest don't say anything about it one way or another. Maybe he survived, travelled to Pete's World and inspired John Lumic to create the Cybusmen by recounting his experiences in Earthshock. There's not much in the series to contradict that either.

Come to think of it, there's only three stories out of 200 that support the idea that Paul McGann was the Eighth Doctor. Might as well toss that out too.

At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter to me if someone wants to believe there were pre-Hartnell Doctors, but I don't see any credible evidence for it.

 

[The]

The argument from silence is a weak argument

Spot-on, brother. Couldn't agree more...

 

[Andrew_Kearley]

There's far more onscreen evidence that the Doctor's name is actually "Doctor Who" than there is that there were pre-Hartnell incarnations.

Not sure what your point is there. That is his name, isn't it?

At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter to me if someone wants to believe there were pre-Hartnell Doctors, but I don't see any credible evidence for it.

Evidence, shmevidence. It's Doctor Who, not some sort of historical documentary. it's all made up anyway. What intrigues me about the "Brain of Morbius" thing is that suddenly, just for a moment, we're given a glimpse that suggests everything we thought we knew might actually be untrue. It suddenly opens up this whole string of possibilities we'd never considered before. That's a brilliant thing, it fuels the imagination. It implies that the mythos of Doctor Who is far stranger than we've ever known. Why not let the imagination run wild? Why the desire to compartmentalize what we understand of Doctor Who into neatly packaged boxes based on "credible evidence"? I think the series opens the mind, and I embrace that.

 

[Garth Rockett]

Evidence, shmevidence. It's Doctor Who, not some sort of historical documentary. it's all made up anyway.

Non sequitur. Of course it's all made up. Accepting that things in this universe actually happened the way we're told they happened has nothing to do with compartimentalizing anything, it has to do with embracing what the show tells us because I like the show. It's as simple as that.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

Non sequitur. Of course it's all made up. Accepting that things in this universe actually happened the way we're told they happened has nothing to do with compartimentalizing anything, it has to do with embracing what the show tells us because I like the show. It's as simple as that.

But Doctor Who is not very consistent: it's full of contradictory stories and facts. Compartimentalizing starts as soon as you think it's important to pick one version as "what truly happened" instead of embracing the show's contradictions as one of its strength.

 

[Guy Gardener]

What did Garak say? "It's all true, especially the lies."

If a determined lone Dalek can break a time Lock... Something that I imagine to be the fallout from a temporal weapon which makes areas of the time stream unnavigatable, like driving up a ladder in an SUV.

 

[Andrew_Kearley]

Evidence, shmevidence. It's Doctor Who, not some sort of historical documentary. it's all made up anyway.

Non sequitur. Of course it's all made up. Accepting that things in this universe actually happened the way we're told they happened has nothing to do with compartimentalizing anything, it has to do with embracing what the show tells us because I like the show. It's as simple as that.

Talk about a non sequitur. I love the show. I love all of it. The comics, the novels, the audios, the chocolate wrappers. And occasionally, there are some episodes on the telly as well. And yeah, I embrace what the show tells us. The show tells us that there were at least eight incarnations before Hartnell. So I embrace that. Totally. The show tells us that Hartnell was the first Doctor. I embrace that too. I'm not going to make a value judgement on which is the correct version, because as far as I'm concerned they're both correct.

 

[Cutter John]

Theres really no point in even arguing. Until the show says so onscreen, fans can pretty much interprete and believe whatever they want. Doctor and the Master are repated, Susan really isn't his granddaughter, etc. One opinions just as valid as another.

 

[Mr Awe]

^^ Oh no, they can say it onscreen and it still won't matter! Look, they said that Hartnell was the first and yet many are convinced that he's not. (I'm not judging them, just there's no evidence for that viewpoint.)

Mr Awe

 

[Garth Rockett]

Evidence, shmevidence. It's Doctor Who, not some sort of historical documentary. it's all made up anyway.

Non sequitur. Of course it's all made up. Accepting that things in this universe actually happened the way we're told they happened has nothing to do with compartimentalizing anything, it has to do with embracing what the show tells us because I like the show. It's as simple as that.

Talk about a non sequitur. I love the show. I love all of it. The comics, the novels, the audios, the chocolate wrappers. And occasionally, there are some episodes on the telly as well.

Yeah, that was poorly phrased on my part - I didn't mean to imply that you didn't like the show at all. I just meant to state that my motivations for interpreting what the show the way I do are simple and straightforward, and you shouldn't read anything more into where I'm coming from.

The show tells us that there were at least eight incarnations before Hartnell.

But as I've tried to point out, the show never tells us that at all. You might conclude that based on one scene in one episode, but there are other interpretations that work equally as well within the context of that episode, and work even better in the context of other episodes.

But, how you want to see the show is your business, and I don't expect to change your mind. I just like to argue from time to time.

 

[Sci]

I'd just like to chime in with my longstanding opinion that the Doctor and the Master are actually former lovers from their time at the Academy, not relatives.

 

[Guy Gardener]

If it all started because they were fighting over a girl, then the master meeting Susan in The Five Doctors would have been a little more creepy don't you think with lines like: "You have your mothers sweet ass."

Then if they were lovers, with the tech they have, the master could be the other donor to Susan's Grand-heritage.

 

[Captain Pike]

Oh God not the pre-Hartnell Doctors thing again..

 

[Jim Steele]

A word about Susan's return to the TV series: No.

 

[OmahaStar]

A word about Susan's return to the TV series: No.

I say heck yeah, before the actress is too old to play the part. A regenerated Susan just isn't kosher.

 

[Bacl]

A word about Susan's return to the TV series: No.

I say heck yeah, before the actress is too old to play the part. A regenerated Susan just isn't kosher.

Or, The Doctor finds her at the end of her first life, and needs to help her with her regeneration.