Where did the “logic” in the logical Mister Spock come from?
- Thread starter billbird2111
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So what you're saying is it's a logical fallacy?
Probably, but I don't know if there's a name for it. I guess it's related to post hoc ergo propter hoc -- "If I see it after I saw a similar thing, it must have been inspired by that thing." It also relates to the historian's fallacy, which Wikipedia defines as "assuming that decision-makers of the past had identical information as those subsequently analyzing the decision." In this case, assuming that the only earlier works another creator could've been inspired by are the works the viewer is personally familiar with or reminded of. Which is not the case here, since Bill did the research to show it was plausible that Roddenberry could've been familiar with the source.
I suppose they could have combined the Spock character with Number One and had a female alien, for as Kirk put it, "Mister Spock, the women on your planet are logical. That's the only planet in this galaxy that can make that claim."
More like a lie. He wrote 24 of 225 episodes, but he wasn't on staff. There were a few writers who wrote nearly that number of scripts. I'm pretty sure another writer tied in number, but I can't remember who and my reference books are long gone.
Number One, Spock, Data, Tuvok, T'Pol, it's definitely always been important for Star Trek to have that logical character.
I always looked at it like the trio of Spock, McCoy, Kirk represents us. Spock is our intellectual side, McCoy is our emotional side, and Kirk is us having to manage the two.
I think it's all about analyzing human behavior for the audience. Why do we do the things we do? Having a character who is logical and doesn't understand emotions is a way to do that. After all, we the audience don't understand emotions either.
Maybe it's also a vehicle to say that our emotions are important. There are a number of times when Spock is confronted with the fact that good old human emotion has saved the day.
So I think having that logical character is a storytelling device.
I always looked at it like the trio of Spock, McCoy, Kirk represents us. Spock is our intellectual side, McCoy is our emotional side, and Kirk is us having to manage the two.
I think it's all about analyzing human behavior for the audience. Why do we do the things we do? Having a character who is logical and doesn't understand emotions is a way to do that. After all, we the audience don't understand emotions either.
Maybe it's also a vehicle to say that our emotions are important. There are a number of times when Spock is confronted with the fact that good old human emotion has saved the day.
So I think having that logical character is a storytelling device.
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Two extremes (relatively speaking) for contrast, and a stand-in for the viewer.
But it's not always about logic. I think of that character as the Answer Man. He/she provided exposition off the top of his head, at a time before people had smart phones and Wikipedia. In those days, there was real value to the guy who could spout needed facts that most characters wouldn't know.
On The Orville it was Isaac. On Logan's Run it was Rem. On DS9 it was Jadzia. On Buck Rogers it was Dr. Theopolis. On Buffy the Vampire Slayer it was Giles. On Gilligan's Island it was the Professor. On Mann & Machine it was the fembot Eve Edison.
Man from Atlantis went Dutch and split the tab: Elizabeth Merrill had the obscure facts in her head, while Mark Harris had the other-worldly, Alien Observer of Humanity vibe. That was a good mix.
The walking encyclopedia? Though I suppose because the crew has access to reams of information in their computer databases, anybody can give information at any time the computer can be accessed.
Spock has elements of an AI, too - able to suggest answers to hypotheticals, not just spout facts.
Spock has elements of an AI, too - able to suggest answers to hypotheticals, not just spout facts.
If you mean the overhyped large language models that are fraudulently passed off as "AI" these days, that's an insult to Spock, because he doesn't just mindlessly compile others' responses and pass off the resultant word salad as an answer, he applies the actual knowledge and judgment of which so-called "AI" is incapable.
Also, as I mentioned before, Spock disdained speculation, only grudgingly offering it when Kirk pressed. He could, of course, make reasoned extrapolations from hard data, but that's different from mere conjecture.
I am just going from the official bio. It's not really discussed. Maybe a line or two? The logic character point that had originally gone to Barrett's "Number One" character was transferred to Nimoy's character of Spock. Alexander does not elaborate beyond that. He spends far more time on the problems with the ear pieces, the tint of the skin, the loss of ingesting energy through a plate in his stomach, etc. That's why I was so frustrated over not finding the answer. It's just not there. I believed the official bio would have elaborated on this, but Alexander did not.
Secondly, although Nimoy does not confirm Alexander's point, he does shed some additional light on it. He mentioned that once he had been given the character trait of logic, it was further enhanced by usage of the word "fascinating." That intervew was done years after the original series plus all of the movies with the original cast. If you pay close attention to the second pilot, you will see that Spock is not some cool and collected character. He yells. He's excitable. Nimoy's acting was the same in The Cage. Only later did he become calm and emotionless.
As for Number One never mentioning the word "logic," she never got the chance man. She was out after the pilot got rejected. There would be no other scripts for her in that role.
Better AI than we have now - what people wish they could use it for - how AI ought to be.
Okay, so more like an oracle, a wise man - somebody to ask for advice, who can set aside their own stakes, if they had any to begin with, rather than just answer questions like "what do we know about this planet/species/lifeform?"
Okay, so more like an oracle, a wise man - somebody to ask for advice, who can set aside their own stakes, if they had any to begin with, rather than just answer questions like "what do we know about this planet/species/lifeform?"
I'm just saying that there can be a distinction between a character being portrayed as unemotional and intellectual and a character specifically defining themselves as following a philosophy of logic. An unemotional intellectual person may think logically, sure, but that doesn't mean they actually use the word "logic" remotely as often as Spock and Vulcans do. Strictly speaking, logic is just one part of a rational, intellectual mindset. It's a reasoning process that's used to analyze and solve problems, but it's more a primary tool for mathematicians and philosophers than for physical scientists, who draw their conclusions from hard evidence rather than logic alone.
So the source of Spock (or Number One) being a cool intellectual isn't necessarily the same as the source of Spock using "logic" as a buzzword all the time. I suspect that may have started with his line "All I know is logic" in the second pilot, and that later writers may have latched onto that and embraced it as a catchword.
On the other hand, it occurred to me to search the Sherlock Holmes canon (the entirety of which can be found on a single page here, since it's all public domain now) and there are some twenty-odd instances of Holmes discussing his use of logic or being described by Watson as a logician. Not a huge amount out of sixty canonical works (since sometimes it's more than once in the same story), but enough to leave an impression. I daresay Sherlock Holmes is probably the most popular model of a rational, intellectual thinker in the English language, so the writers of TOS were likely influenced by him to an extent when writing Spock. (Spock even claimed Holmes, or Doyle, as an ancestor of his in TUC.)
The relevant portion regarding when Leonard Nimoy found Spock's "logic" begins at 4.47.
I have to wonder of Dehner might have been influenced by Number One.
As I said, it was a common stereotype of the era that the only way a woman could achieve success in a "male" profession like science was by being cold, emotionless, and sexually frigid -- while secretly longing to find the right man who would melt her reserve and turn her back into a "real woman." Number One and Dehner were both pretty generic examples of that stereotype. You can find numerous other such characters in the sci-fi movies and literature of the '50s and '60s. Susan Calvin from Isaac Asimov's robot stories is a prominent example. (In fact, I think I used to imagine Sally Kellerman's face when I read the Susan Calvin stories, even though she was described as quite spinsterish and unattractive.)
What notable characters broke that stereotype?
As far as the thread topic, not sure if referenced yet, likely much earlier precedence, haven't read the whole thread.
While Rodenberry's outline dated March 11, 1964 and the second pilot which merged the Number One template with Spock, was produced in 1965.
By then Dune originally published as two separate serials (1963-64) in Analog magazine, may have had some influence at the time, with the introduction of the concept of Mentats serving as advisors and strategic thinkers.
While Rodenberry's outline dated March 11, 1964 and the second pilot which merged the Number One template with Spock, was produced in 1965.
By then Dune originally published as two separate serials (1963-64) in Analog magazine, may have had some influence at the time, with the introduction of the concept of Mentats serving as advisors and strategic thinkers.
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Professional woman who wasn't an "ice queen"?
Yes. Do any come to mind?
Not just professional, but specifically in a profession that was considered the purview of men, such as science, law enforcement, or government. So Uhura or Chapel wouldn't count, since switchboard operator and nurse were conventional female professions, considered suitable to feminine temperaments. (Which just goes to show how arbitrary gender stereotypes are, since an earlier generation considered nursing to be men's work on the assumption that women were too delicate and sensitive to handle being exposed to the sick and injured.)
I'm tempted to suggest Maureen Robinson from Lost in Space, since she was a biochemist. But that fact was only stated in the unaired pilot, and in the series proper, she was rarely if ever written as a scientist, only as a mother.
Here's an offbeat suggestion: Dr. Zira from Planet of the Apes. She's an unmarried female scientist, yet she's not cold or out of touch with her emotions, and even though she's engaged to Dr. Cornelius, there's no indication that she plans to give up her career as a scientist once she gets married. Of course, the fact that she's not human lessens the significance of the stereotype-breaking.
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