"What You Leave Behind"

[TroiFan4ever]

"What You Leave Behind" was a sad but awesome finale, i thought. Some people might want to scowl at me for this but personally i thought "What You Leave Behind" was better than "All Good Things..."

I'm mainly talking about the ending of that 2-part finale. The story itself i found difficult to follow and understand because too many things going on at once and i've only seen pieces of DS9's later seasons so of course i'm not going to understand it all that much but...

I love that final showdown with Sisko and Kai Winn vs. Dukat in the fire caves!!! So... apparently Sisko is at a party at a Holosuite with Vic Fontaine celebrating the end of the Dominion War which they probably wouldn't have won so easily if not for that Female Shapeshifter turning herself in. But Sisko and Kassidy are dancing smoothly to music and casually dressed and all until he gets a vision, prompting him to change into his uniform, take the Rio Grande Runabout and fly to (Bajor?) to meet Kai Winn and Dukat at the fire caves, phaser rifle in hand.

I should remember that scene because it's fun to watch and i watch a clip of that scene all the time on YouTube...
Kai Winn took off her yellow robe and that hat thing and like Rapunzel, she let her hair down. Louise Fletcher / Kai Winn looks so much more beautiful without the yellow robe and hat thing in my opinion. I'll come back to that in a moment. Anyway, Dukat (Cardassian form) is on his knees taunting Winn about how all of the Celestial Temple, Alpha Quandrant or whatever will be up in flames as he goes up. He stops... and holds his hands up... sensing the presence of a third person. That "third person" is Sisko, back in his uniform armed with a phaser rifle about to shoot the hell out of Dukat! I love Dukat saying something about "a beloved Emissary like an avenging angel to slay the demon" or something of that sort. But Sisko sneers "i should've known the 'demon' would be you." So after Dukat challenges Sisko to try and kill him. But when he raises his phaser rifle to do exactly that, it flies out of his hand and Sisko is knocked to his knees after punching Dukat, which don't even faze him! Dukat kept taunting Sisko about winning or whatever... Sisko declares he will stop him. Dukat taunts him saying he can't even stand up. That's when Kai Winn declares SHE will stop him then. Then upon her request, Sisko tosses Winn the book, which she was about to throw into the fire, then she and the book are burned by the Pai-Wrathes? Do i have that right?

Either way, I wish Kai Winn wasn't killed at the end. I really liked Kai Winn. She was one of my favorite characters. Too bad it took Sisko throwing himself OFF the cliff with Dukat to defeat Dukat for good. This is what i'm talking about here. Jake misses his dad. The seven-year DS9 run ends with Jake losing his father after a battle with Dukat. It almost made me cry. That's not all that made it sad though.

There's that scene when after Kira and Odo take a runabout to some planet and they beam to the island rock surface (last time we see TNG's transporter beam effect (that i'm aware of anyway) btw) Kira and Odo say a final goodbye before Odo walks into the liquid and he is never seen again after that. Another sad ending that i'm surprised i didn't burst into tears at. OH! And don't even get me started on how Odo and Quark have one final showdown before we say goodbye to Odo for the final time. Odo kept saying he doesn't want to say anything to Quark, not even a goodbye. Nothing. But after Odo leaves with Kira in a runabout, Quark's "That man loves me!" had me laughing like hell! Yeah, Quark, I'm sure Odo does love you!

That, and the Kai Winn and Sisko vs. Dukat scene were fun scenes to watch! I wish that Sisko and Winn would've teamed up to destroy Dukat without getting killed themselves, then Jake would have his dad come back to Deep Space Nine, Odo and Kira would've gotten married in Vic's holosuite lounge, and then "What You Leave Behind" would've been a much-happier ending!

What do you guys think?

 

[kkt]

I do like the episode, and I think it's the best of the Trek finales. Fight scene, kinda cheesy, but engaging. (Also for anyone who hasn't watched the original series in a while, watch the last act of "Where No Man Has Gone Before", and see if it looks familiar

Edit: Yes, Sisko and Jake suffer, and Kira and Odo. It's sad, but that's war and endings. Pretending that no one suffers is a child's eye view.

 

[Terok Nor]

I don't think it's as good as All Good Things. That episode is a masterpiece. However it is the perfect ending to DS9. I don't really see What You Leave Behind as a stand alone episode. The final 9 episodes are one long episode to me.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

DS9 had the best premiere and the best finale in the franchise by far. That series bookended so beautifully.

Of course, I may be just a tad biased. (AGT is fine, too.)

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I think I've written a lot about this episode over the years. It's not as cleanly written as AGT, but of course, it is trying to accomplish a lot more. I think AGT is probably a better episode, but it many ways, I think it falls short as a finale. The episode is really founded on the reparté between Stewart and de Lancie. OTOH, it does not do a lot to highlight the development of the characters and narratives over the seven seasons. WYLB has something for every character, bringing a conclusion to the development of each of them, as well as wraps up each story line. The thing about Bajor becoming part of the Federation isn't shown, but the series ends with the notion that the Bajorans have developed and are better for the Federation. All the characters are effectively "parked," and I don't feel that there are a lot of open questions that still need answering. WYLB is far better as a finale than AGT.

 

[Armus]

I love the way Dukat taunts Winn, "Are you still here?" during her final moments in the firecaves. Dukat's final arc was pretty out there but I thought Marc Alaimo gave some of his strongest performances in that final season.

I like how the finale bookends the series, and I thought it was realistic that many of the characters moved on. That's the way real life occurs. It was a good bittersweet finale.

 

[eschaton]

There are two issues with DS9's finale which make it not great, but merely good.

1. While the series did a bang-up job with closing out the Dominion War, the final arc involving Sisko, Dukat, Winn, and the Pah Wraiths was dumber than a box of hammers. Seriously - Sisko was built up over seven seasons as The Emissary and the task he was born to do was - tackle Dukat and push him into a pit of fire? That's all they had? For all their skill with character, it's pretty clear that the writing team eventually just had no idea what to do with The Prophets, and just winged it at the last minute. It's too bad Worf coming on the show caused them to move back the Dominion War's arc a whole year, because otherwise the war would have been wrapped up in Season 6, allowing them to focus on The Prophets/Emissary storylines more fully for the 7th season.

2. A minor quibble, but it's always been unconscionable to me that Sisko came back and talked to Kasidy, but not to Jake. The bond between Ben and Jake is the emotional core of the show. His looking out the window at the end of the series always brings tears to my eyes - in part because it feels so wrong that his father would abandon him.

 

[Kor]

Missed opportunity to reminisce about Jadzia Dax.

Kor

 

[Armus]

^Yes, at the very least Worf would have reminisced over some clips of her.

 

[eschaton]

Missed opportunity to reminisce about Jadzia Dax.

IIRC Jadzia wasn't in the clip section because the studio and Terry Farrell were unable to work out how much money she should be paid for appearing in clip form.

Regardless, the clip segment was self-indulgent and stupid. None of the other Treks did that in their finales. They could have used those few minutes for something far more useful.

 

[TroiFan4ever]

The thing I like about "What You Leave Behind" that "All Good Things..." or even "Endgame" failed to do was show a montage which consisted of compilation clips of each main character over the seven years of Deep Space Nine. That made "What You Leave Behind" not only more emotional but more of an ending.

Also, I think I recall reading on O'Brien's Memory Alpha page a long time ago that after "What You Leave Behind" that he's now a teacher on Earth's Starfleet Academy? I don't remember ever seeing that in the episode itself but I'm glad they had O'Brien move on to a new area in Starfleet instead of trying to get him back on the Enterprise. That wraps the O'Brien story up perfectly. I dunno but it's kind of fascinating to see a character whose first appearance was in TNG's premiere "Encounter at Farpoint" and his final appearance being "What You Leave Behind" and how his character has developed over a twelve-year course, spanning two Trek shows.

Speaking of Memory Alpha, I remember very well that the series finale actually began with "Chimera" and each episode after that is a direct continuation from the previous one... like a soap opera... a weekly soap opera, that is! It's fascinating because i've never thought of it that way. I guess it's because I never really understood the whole Dominion War, Prophets, Pah Wraiths storyline, and how Dukat came to be a Bajoran temporarily, but I've always saw "What You Leave Behind" as its own episode... kind of... with everything from "Chimera" leading up to it.

Another thing I liked about "What You Leave Behind" were the scenes with the Female Shapeshifter, Brocha, the Breen, and Weyoun... and Kira in an actual Starfleet uniform. Someone blasts Weyoun with a phaser and kills him. Female Shapeshifter stares down at a dead Weyoun and calls out whoever shot him saying "Why'd you do that? That was Weyoun's last copy!"

<sighs> I still wish Terry Farrel hadn't left Deep Space Nine because when Ezri took Jadzia's place in Season 7, I've always wondered what Season 7 and all its episodes would be like if Jadzia Dax were in them.

Edit to Add: I still wish the writers would've found a better way to settle the Dominion War other than Female Shapeshifter declaring "You know what? Fine. I quit. You guys win."

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Also, I think I recall reading on O'Brien's Memory Alpha page a long time ago that after "What You Leave Behind" that he's now a teacher on Earth's Starfleet Academy? I don't remember ever seeing that in the episode itself but I'm glad they had O'Brien move on to a new area in Starfleet instead of trying to get him back on the Enterprise. That wraps the O'Brien story up perfectly. I dunno but it's kind of fascinating to see a character whose first appearance was in TNG's premiere "Encounter at Farpoint" and his final appearance being "What You Leave Behind" and how his character has developed over a twelve-year course, spanning two Trek shows.

It was from the show. I don't remember with 100% certainty if it was explained in WYLB or if it was mentioned in the lead up episodes, but it was explicitly stated that the O'Briens were headed back to Earth so he could teach at the Academy.

Another thing I liked about "What You Leave Behind" were the scenes with the Female Shapeshifter, Brocha, the Breen, and Weyoun... and Kira in an actual Starfleet uniform. Someone blasts Weyoun with a phaser and kills him. Female Shapeshifter stares down at a dead Weyoun and calls out whoever shot him saying "Why'd you do that? That was Weyoun's last copy!"

"I was hoping you'd say that!" - Such a perfect scene.

Edit to Add: I still wish the writers would've found a better way to settle the Dominion War other than Female Shapeshifter declaring "You know what? Fine. I quit. You guys win."

Well, she didn't really, though. She lost basically all her remaining forces in the AQ in the invasion of Cardassia and the Cardassian Revolt. Sure, the GQ could've kept fighting and she could've led an AQ insurgency. But the Cardassians switched sides and the Breen likely were having second thoughts about continuing, since they would now be expected to bear the brunt of the action. She herself was dying and without access to Cardassian space and the white manufacturing there, the Jem'hadar would only last a few more weeks, anyway. By surrendering, she got the cure and the promise that Odo would cure the Link, as well. The Dominion loves the long game, so they can always try again in the future - unless Odo actually succesfully changes their collective mind.

 

[Paradise City]

AGT is much tidier if only concept. They aren't burdened by having to resolve a specific arc and there are several character moments fleshed out over three timelines that are good. The Romulans get elbowed from the story though and the Pasteur is forgotten about.

What You Leave Behind was like trying to stop an overweight freight train with their need to resolve a weighty arc. Earlier in the season they used up space to integrate the Ezri character, so there's more to resolve with less real estate to resolve it.

I found Winn, Sisko and Dukat shoving and pushing each other about in a cave, with Sisko and Dukat zapping each other in a superman style showdown a little hokey mind. It's adequate but more a product of writer exhaustion than writer inspiration I feel.

Still Sisko's disappearance and the mystery attendant to that, does inject a poignancy into that finale.

 

[Armus]

IIRC Jadzia wasn't in the clip section because the studio and Terry Farrell were unable to work out how much money she should be paid for appearing in clip form.

Regardless, the clip segment was self-indulgent and stupid. None of the other Treks did that in their finales. They could have used those few minutes for something far more useful.

I thought it was a good use of clips, a quick way to convey the bittersweet memories of the characters who were leaving DS9 for good. After Shades of Grey I never thought I'd ever see clips on Star Trek again. If they are tastefully done I don't see why they can't be used on rare occasion.

 

[Kor]

IIRC Jadzia wasn't in the clip section because the studio and Terry Farrell were unable to work out how much money she should be paid for appearing in clip form.

Regardless, the clip segment was self-indulgent and stupid. None of the other Treks did that in their finales. They could have used those few minutes for something far more useful.

Yeah, nothing says "Look at ME, I'm a FINALE!!! " like a nostalgic clip segment.

Kor

 

[UnknownSample]

I'd rather they'd left Worf out of the nostalgic clips thing, if Jadzia couldn't be in it. We could understand a Klingon not getting nostalgic.
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I understand that with the finale and the tail end of DS9 in general, they wanted to intensify the story emotionally and give it a more epic feel. A nice antidote to the blandness of Next Gen and the start of DS9. What they specifically came up with to do this, though, the Fire Caves scene, ended up just being melodrama and the worst thing was, it got magical. Anti-SF.
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I was all for the blurring of the boundary between SF and magic, as long as it was done ultimately in an SF way. That's classic SF, showing civilizations SO advanced that, at our level, what they do appears to be magic. As long as it isn't *actually*, literally magic. In that scene, we get spoken word spells and magical events. NO.

 

[Farscape One]

I agree that "All Good Things..." is a better episode, but "WHAT YOU LEAVE BEHIND" is a better series finale. The former worked better as an episode because at its core, TNG was more episodic by nature. DS9 was FAR more serialized, so the finale for each was suited to its show.

Regarding the 'magic instead of scifi' issue with the Pah-Wraiths... I do agree that it teetered on the edge of mumbo jumbo, but I think it can still be excused as scifi.

For example, when the words were being said to get the Caves aflame again, it definitely appears magical, not scifi-like. But in scifi, there are lots of examples of advanced technology that work by the use of certain sound frequencies. Even STAR TREK has examples of this... the obelisk in TOS' "THE PARADISE SYNDROME" comes to mind. In this case, the Prophets may have it working so specifically that it requires actual words, or rather how they sound out, to make it happen.

We never really got into HOW the Prophets were so advanced, technologically. The wormhole, the Orbs... it looks magical because it was never really delved into fully. And I think that's a good thing. The universe should have things we can't explain... it gives humans new questions to ask and keeps us working to learn more. Quinn from VGR's "DEATH WISH" said it best... "Captain, you're an explorer. What if there was nothing left to explore? Would you want to live forever under those conditions?"

My answer is no. So I am fine with the more mystical side of the series. It's part of the uniqueness and charm of DS9 that sets it so far apart from the rest of the franchise.

 

[LJones41]

Yeah, nothing says "Look at ME, I'm a FINALE!!! " like a nostalgic clip segment.

It's the one thing I dislike about the DS9 finale. Okay, that and Sisko's final confrontation with Dukat.

 

[Paul755]

The only issue I have with the finale is Sisko’s ulitimate fate. Otherwise I like it.

Not as good as AGT. But certainly better than the finales for Voyager and Enterprise.

 

[TroiFan4ever]

You know what would've made the Sisko & Winn vs. Dukat showdown better? Hand-to-hand combat, show an actual FIGHT taking place between Sisko and Dukat, be a phaser shootout then hand-to-hand combat and make it so that Dukat is right on top of Sisko on the edge of the cliff about to toss him off... then just as Dukat is about to kill him Kai Winn shoots him and sends HIM over the fire caves and she would then pull Sisko to safety. Sisko and Winn they board that runabout orbiting Bajor, fly back to Deep Space Nine. Jake is rejoined with his father. Happier ending. More epic, action-packed showdown.