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what happened to the warp speed limitation?

BlackFire3

Lieutenant Commander
Red Shirt
there was an episode (can't remember the name of it) where they discover that warp technology damages sub space and eventually normal space. later on, we hear a mention where they are allowed to exceed the warp 5 limit imposed. further after that, the limitation seems to be forgotten. it also seems to be forgotten in the other series.
my question is when did this no longer become an issue? or was this just swept under a plothole?
 
there was an episode (can't remember the name of it) where they discover that warp technology damages sub space and eventually normal space. later on, we hear a mention where they are allowed to exceed the warp 5 limit imposed. further after that, the limitation seems to be forgotten. it also seems to be forgotten in the other series.
my question is when did this no longer become an issue? or was this just swept under a plothole?

They made mention of it a few times in STNG afterwards (Force of nature, Eye of the Beholderhttp://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation). I believe with the advent of USS Voyager, all following ships had re-designed engines that didn't need to follow the limits. Most likely other ships were retrofitted.
 
I can understand and sort of agree with the sentiment that the ball was dropped with that, but...frankly, "nothing of value was lost" is my opinion on it. I don't think there was much interesting to be done with it, and warp is too much of a Star Trek THING. It's so cumbersome to have these limitations on warp in mind for every episode. It's another symptom of S7 being the "running out of good ideas" season.
 
Its like saying phasers cause brain tumors, or something. Or Data interferes with communicator reception. Too basic of a thing to alter. I don't understand how they thought it could possibly be kept in mind for the future.
 
To be sure, "Force of Nature" only establishes that warp travel is harmful to the structure of space in one specific place in the galaxy - the Hekarras Corridor, a rare region where warp travel is significantly more frequent than elsewhere.

It might well be that after an initial overreaction, Starfleet did the math and decided that high warp travel anywhere else wouldn't warrant any concern, as it would take about thirty million years until any damage began to show outside the Corridor. And possibly also that any damage would repair itself in a far shorter time.

Starfleet belatedly admitting that it had been stupid wouldn't be a newsworthy item, and wouldn't be mentioned specifically in any episode.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I can understand and sort of agree with the sentiment that the ball was dropped with that, but...frankly, "nothing of value was lost" is my opinion on it. I don't think there was much interesting to be done with it, and warp is too much of a Star Trek THING. It's so cumbersome to have these limitations on warp in mind for every episode. It's another symptom of S7 being the "running out of good ideas" season.

I agree but what else could they highlight an environmental issue with? It wouldn,t ave worked so well if it was done with something we'd never heard of.
Noone wants a speed limit in a space adventure series.
 
I believe with the advent of USS Voyager, all following ships had re-designed engines that didn't need to follow the limits. Most likely other ships were retrofitted.

Where was this redesign mentioned on screen?

Every time the warp nacelles went up before the ship jumped to warp. Voyager had a streamline design to it, just as the Enterprise-E did.

Voyager and the Defiant also had different warp core designs from the E-D. The E-E also had more goin' on in its engine room.
 
Where was this redesign mentioned on screen?

Never.

And apparently the moving nacelles of the Voyager had nothing to do with it, because it appears that the prototype ship of that class was already built when the warp damage phenomenon was discovered - the very episode "Force of Nature" featured a reference to a USS Intrepid that was competing with the E-D on engine efficiency!

Clearly, the moving nacelles were not Starfleet's universal solution to the warp pollution thing, or to anything much, because no other ship class was ever shown to possess this feature...

So, we never heard of any hardware change that would have resulted from the warp pollution panic. And we never saw a change that we could safely associate with the panic.

This suggests one of the following:

a) A change in operating procedures negated the pollution - say, adherence to the speed limit for 90% of the time. This just didn't warrant any dialogue references.
b) A change in operating settings negated the pollution - say, an extra line of code written into the warp autothrottle program. This didn't warrant any dialogue references.
c) A change in internal hardware negated the pollution, without requiring any external changes or anything we'd see at a glance even when looking into an engine room. This didn't warrant any dialogue.
d) The warp pollution problem was dismissed as insignificant.

Timo Saloniemi
 
The ending of "Force of Nature" when Picard read that 24th century telegraph had the same feel as whatever that famous episode of MASH was where they killed a character off-camera when their helicopter was shot down.

Maybe at the end of the episode, they should have done an a defiant engage and warp flyoff to a modified version of an 80s rock song, "I Can't Fly Warp 5.5"


Go on and write me up for 9.5
Post my face, wanted alive or alive (the Federation way... unless your throat throbs with a giant parasite)
Take my command uniform and all that jive
I can't fly warp 5.5!
 
Stay ALIVE! Don't exceed Warp FIVE!!

Hard to sell the concept of long-term environmental damage in a single episode, and virtually impossible to make into entertaining Space Opera.

DS9, as a show, would have been in a much better position to develop such an issue gradually, showing actual consequences to Bajor or the Wormhole over time.
 
It's as if TPTB suffered from buyer's remorse over the consequences of Force of Nature. IMO it really looks like this little piece of canon was tossed overboard. Was it too politically suggestive, too restrictive to the little imaginations of the writing staff? Perhaps we'll never know.

What's ironic is that their choosing so glaringly not to deal with the warp 5 limit on screen is by metaphor the worst thing we could do in RL when facing the problem of actual environmental pollution. TNG raises an issue as a metaphor for pollution, and then ST as a franchise deals with the issue by sweeping it under the rug. Good advice!
 
Was it too politically suggestive, too restrictive to the little imaginations of the writing staff? Perhaps we'll never know.

What's ironic is that their choosing so glaringly not to deal with the warp 5 limit on screen is by metaphor the worst thing we could do in RL when facing the problem of actual environmental pollution. TNG raises an issue as a metaphor for pollution, and then ST as a franchise deals with the issue by sweeping it under the rug. Good advice!

Agreed. It's been a long while since I've seen the ep, but as I recall, the environmental damage (pollution, etc.) will be so bad that a region of space will be uninhabitable if ships continue to use warp at all. Picard wrangles with this and is upset that space travel, his passion has proven to be destructive. Oh man, the right thing to do is 'change our ways' to avoid long-term consequences that will only become serious generations from now.

But then Starfleet, given ALL the scientific evidence, does not ban the use of warp, but caps it to lessen the inevitable damage (i.e. government X does not ban gasoline cars that consume precious resources at an incredible rate and pollute and damage the environment, but merely decrees that they be slightly more fuel and emission efficient)

So now the CORRECT solution has been denied Picard, so he can continue his moral outrage, while still traveling at warp, and even being granted exceptions to the 5.5 limit in emergencies. OK, exceptions for dire situations make sense, but I'm still unsure as to the episodes point of view.

Are we Picard? Outraged because our leaders have failed to react seriously enough? But then Picard has defied his leaders on ethical grounds in the past, been proven correct and effected change. So is this problem just not important enough for him to take a stand over? Or would it just be too much of an inconvenience? Many today don't feel the need to react strongly to such a long term problem. Is that the point? Do Picard and crew represent how people of the world (specifically most Americans) actually react today? Upset, but feeling powerless, or that the problem is too abstract to enforce an uncomfortable solution? Wo, with the allegory in place, should WE as 20th and now 21st century peoples be expected to take even stronger action than our ethically evolved 24th century counterparts?

If elected political leaders today were to ban automobiles altogether in favor of public transportation, or lower speed limits to 35mph even on highways for all but hybrid or electric cars, change would occur at a huge financial and political cost. Well UFP politics have never been greatly explored, but the society the show is selling indicates a lack of want, so the financial incentive would be lessened or reduced, and if the true aspiration is to better themselves, then tough decisions should trump re-election concerns. But if this enlightened society is unable or unwilling to take the necessary steps, how could today's society with its political realities be expected to do better?

Interesting topics for discussion and debate, but hard to make compelling, especially when the show's solution is so muddled, then conveniently forgotten or solved off-screen. The debate is worthy, but the drama ultimately went nowhere.
 
The real-world analogy could easily be extended: perhaps this is a case of the "scientific community" being wrong and too afraid to 'fess up, or a case of the "political leadership" being far too dense to understand what the scientists are saying and thus overreacting - or creating limitations and "cures" that are of no practical significance because there's no problem to begin with, but that are politically expedient.

Nothing in the episode suggests that the steps taken would be "necessary". Warp has not been used for 200 years - it has been used for billions of years, for all we know. And the galaxy is still there. Even if the Feds tried their damnedest for the next few million years, they obviously couldn't leave an "environmental" mark. To pretend that they could is pure hubris.

Perhaps that's the lesson to be learned from "Force of Nature"? That trying to save the world is a journey of self-indulgence that only detracts us from that which is truly important?

Timo Saloniemi
 
Nothing in the episode suggests that the steps taken would be "necessary". Warp has not been used for 200 years - it has been used for billions of years, for all we know. Even if the Feds tried their damnedest for the next few million years, they obviously couldn't leave an "environmental" mark. To pretend that they could is pure hubris.

Your assertions here are contradicted by the episode.

Hubris is excessive and unjustified presumption of one's own importance. Part of the episode was a debate about what constitutes evidence. When Serova creates a warp core breach, she creates conditions that lead to tangible evidence that warp technology is destroying the universe. At that point, based on the observable effects that ensue, the effect is no longer considered fanciful, and the role of the Federation in causing the damage is no longer doubted. The crew actually becomes upset that they had been, prior to Serova's sacrifice, unable to see that they were destroying what they loved. The restriction to warp 5 is to slow the damage until a way to counteract the effect can be found. Never is it said that adhering to the speed limit will reverse the effect.

By the facts laid out in the episode, any warp travel by species predating the Federation would have contributed to the problem.

The real-world analogy could easily be extended: perhaps this is a case of the "scientific community" being wrong and too afraid to 'fess up, or a case of the "political leadership" being far too dense to understand what the scientists are saying and thus overreacting - or creating limitations and "cures" that are of no practical significance because there's no problem to begin with, but that are politically expedient.
There is no motivation whatsoever for the scientific community as a whole to be "too afraid to 'fess up to an error". For, historically, errors have always eventually been exposed. On the contrary, if an error in fact exists and can be proven to be an error, then there is every motivation to publish that proof, as it would solidify the careers of the authors. The fact that counterclaims have so far not met the burden of proof they need to means that there is good reason to doubt the counterclaims.
 
she creates conditions that lead to tangible evidence

In other words, she pulls a stunt that confuses the issue - another very good analogy to today's world.

The Federation is not in the habit of blowing up warp cores at a frequency that would endanger the fabric of space. It's more or less like arguing that fission powerplants are bad for Mother Earth because Little Boy and Fat Man created dangerous fallout. Or that wind turbines are bad because David Copperfield appeared to hack his pretty assistant to a dozen pieces with one (only it was a trick).

For, historically, errors have always eventually been exposed.

...And exposure has always been delayed by the all too human insistence of the scientists on covering their own asses.

The fact that counterclaims have so far not met the burden of proof they need to means that there is good reason to doubt the counterclaims.

The only thing it means is that they have not had sufficient time to do one thing or another.

For all we know, the proof offered in "Force of Nature" was countermanded seven episodes later, and countermanded for good.

What the audience already knows is pretty damning anyway:

By the facts laid out in the episode, any warp travel by species predating the Federation would have contributed to the problem.

Indeed. And since there's billions of years of such precedent, this already is sufficient proof that no problem exists.

Timo Saloniemi
 
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