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What are your Doctor Who hot takes?

Valid. But in 1976 what would people think?

That it was a special effect to show the doctor fighting the monster, and that was it, then i went out to play and the world moved on, that was the world in 1976, but then Chibnal came along and seems to have decided the quickest and easiest way to leave his mark on the show was not with good stories, but to go and kick the dust from 50 years of Who which was bothering no one but him it seems, and as we have seen this has now continued with RTD and the War chief because...........well only those two can tell you why.
 
That seems to go into how up-in-the-air production was with the whole greater 50th anniversary project, with Moffatt deciding pretty last-minute that if he counted the “Journey’s End” regeneration, he could get the whole thing over with right then. My guess would be Moffatt didn’t think that the angst of the Doctor risking death (to a greater extent than usual, there’s always a little chance of them being killed so dead they don’t regenerate) could go two or three seasons without getting old, and then would feel anticlimactic when he somehow regenerated anyway.

I don’t believe it’s been dramatized, but I think it’s interesting that the resulting implication is that the Doctor himself didn’t know that one counted, so there was a time on Trenzelore when he fully expected to regenerate and nothing happened. The short story collection about his time on Trenzelore which didn’t tell that story, but did say his limp was because he’d lost a leg in a nonspecific encounter, which I assume would’ve been when he realized he was out of extra lives.
The original plan for Time of the Doctor was that the Time Lords did something to Trenzalore which prevented the Doctor from regenerating while on the planet, which would have been lifted at the end after the Doctor reached very old age. But then Eccleston refused to return for Day of the Doctor, resulting in the creation of the War Doctor and realizing that put the count at twelve Doctors, so Moffat decided Tennant's hand job regeneration in Journey's End did count, making Smith the thirteenth life and decided being on the final life was the reason the Doctor couldn't regenerate and the Time Lords would grant a new regeneration cycle at the end.
 
but then Chibnal came along and seems to have decided the quickest and easiest way to leave his mark on the show was not with good stories, but to go and kick the dust from 50 years of Who which was bothering no one but him it seems,
That's not true and you've been around on this forum for a while so you must remember the many times the Morbius Doctors were flagged here.

Long before the Timeless Child was a glimmer in Chibnall's eye I remember many discussions on here with people suggesting Hartnell wasn't the first Doctor and that the Brain of Morbius proved this fact.

And as for decades of Who bothering no one, how many times have people wondered if/when Susan was coming back despite the fact we haven't seen her since 1983?
 
That's not true and you've been around on this forum for a while so you must remember the many times the Morbius Doctors were flagged here.

Long before the Timeless Child was a glimmer in Chibnall's eye I remember many discussions on here with people suggesting Hartnell wasn't the first Doctor and that the Brain of Morbius proved this fact.

And as for decades of Who bothering no one, how many times have people wondered if/when Susan was coming back despite the fact we haven't seen her since 1983?

Well no need to worry about any of that now, as Chibnall and RTD will lock it all down in a neat little bundle so everyone no longer needs to think anymore or ask questions about the show, the very thing as you point out fans have been doing for decades, which is part of the shows appeal for many, but no need to worry about any of that now as Chibnall and Davis will spoon feed everyone into silence on any ambiguity across the shows 60 years.


Next up from Chibnall and Davis is a new cut of Citizen Kane with a voice over at the end stating clearly that it's just his childhood sledge, the end, job done, nothing more to see here, move along people. Lol
 
And yet it's less than a year ago fans were complaining because RTD didn't explain what was going on in 73 Yards and left it too vague?

As for the Timeless Child that did leave a new mystery, where did the TC come from in the first place?

And seriously if you think the identity of Rosebud is the defining thing that makes Citizen Kane of note...
 
Leaving aside the recent discussions to address the main theme of the topic, my Doctor Who hot take:

If this is your critique:


The status quo when I started watching is the way the show always was in the past, not the result of changes made over time by various writers and producers, so changes made after I started watching are wrong and bad and against everything the show ever was. There were no controversial changes to the show before the one I'm mad about and the producer or writer who did it hates the show and wants to destroy it.

I'm not going to take your opinion of the show seriously. This applies to, among others:
  • The Doctor shouldn't have existed before the Hartnell Doctor, as depicted in "The Brain of Morbius"!
  • The Doctor shouldn't kiss women!
  • The Doctor shouldn't be a woman!
  • The Doctor shouldn't have existed before the Hartnell Doctor, as depicted in Chibnall's Timeless Child storylines!
  • The Doctor shouldn't be black!
  • The Doctor shouldn't kiss men!
  • That's not how regeneration is supposed to happen!
  • Take me seriously, dammit! I speak for all of fandom!
 
Heck, I think the bi-regeneration is dumb. But I don't try to justify that opinion by saying that it's unprecedented for the show to do something different with regeneration, and I don't claim to speak for everyone. I think it's dumb because I don't think RTD has thought through all the ramifications and complications. But, as with the half-human thing and others, I expect it's pretty likely to be ignored most or all of the time by future showrunners, and the same goes for the Timeless Child.

In 2005, there were people arguing that the 1996 TV movie wouldn't be part of the series continuity and McGann didn't count. The show ignored that issue until "Human Nature" in the third series. The idea that any future producer is going to start work on the show thinking, okay, I have to retcon or resolve the Timeless Child, and I have to retcon or resolve the bi-regeneration, and then I can tell the Doctor Who stories I want to tell -- does anyone really believe any future showrunner is going to spend time worrying about any of that?
 
And yet it's less than a year ago fans were complaining because RTD didn't explain what was going on in 73 Yards and left it too vague?

As for the Timeless Child that did leave a new mystery, where did the TC come from in the first place?

And seriously if you think the identity of Rosebud is the defining thing that makes Citizen Kane of note...
Thankfully i cut Who off at the TC nonsense, so at least on my shelves Hartnel is and will always be the first doctor, and Capaldi is the last, as Chibnall or RTD can't get access to my DVD and BR shelves, so they are out of luck on that aspect, but i will thank them for saving me a lot of money on anything Who after Capldi. ;)
 
The haters have always overreacted to the Timeless Child. The biggest impact it will have on the franchise is opening the door to more appearances by Jo Martin (which would be a good thing, IMO) and allowing the creation of another forgotten Doctor played by a celebrity. That's it, it hardly damages or ruins or even changes anything to the extent some of the crying would have you think.

Bigeneration isn't that bad per se, what I don't approve of is RTD's claim in interviews that some sort of temporal retcon worked it's way back through the Doctor's life resulting in all regenerations becoming bigenerations, as that opens up one hella can of worms. But fortunately that hasn't been reflected onscreen within the show yet and can be ignored.

Seriously, most of the things Doctor Who fandom gets worked up over can be shrugged off and ignored rather than getting the kinds of overreactions they get.
 
After seeing Timeless Children try to retcon/resolve the Morbius Doctors I can believe anything.

Just my opinion, but I doubt that Chibnall felt a burning need to resolve Morbius and came up with the Timeless Child storyline. Instead, it seems more likely to me that Chibnall looked back at what Davies and Moffat did, with big ideas like the Time War and the end of Gallifrey, the Metacrisis Doctor, the War Doctor, the Impossible Girl, etc, and decided to do something along those lines too.

Thankfully i cut Who off at the TC nonsense, so at least on my shelves Hartnel is and will always be the first doctor, and Capaldi is the last, as Chibnall or RTD can't get access to my DVD and BR shelves, so they are out of luck on that aspect, but i will thank them for saving me a lot of money on anything Who after Capldi. ;)

Say you're watching "The Image of the Fendahl" or "Spearhead From Space" or "The Eleventh Hour" or... hell, just about anything from Hartnell to Capaldi. Does the existence of the Timeless Child change how any of those stories play out? What difference does it make?

I'm not arguing that the Timeless Child is good or bad. I'm pointing out that, more than 99% of the time, it just doesn't matter.
 
That it was a special effect to show the doctor fighting the monster, and that was it, then i went out to play and the world moved on, that was the world in 1976,

True, nobody knew back then when the last incarnation might hit, and with the 4th Doctor (3rd regeneration, that we knew of), nobody cared. So many lives left to go, would anybody really be thinking about that? If nothing else, if anything, they might have thought that the issue would be addressed...

Never mind that the show already explained it in 1966 in "The Power of the Daleks". Obviously, people would eventually look at the wristwatch waiting for the Doc to get back to the TARDIS, so that was subverted by the Time Lords' trial. Then came the second-biggest retcon with Pertwee's finale and giving it a name. Two years later, the limitation is canonized after stories making references to regeneration and potentially hinting at something to explain the Doctor not being the 4th incarnation but a greater one. Which got dropped /abandoned as Hinchcliffe got put onto another show and Williams cared nothing for it, apart from letting Tom Baker crack more jokes about it as the years went by.

"The Five Doctors" reveals that new 12-regeneration cycles can be handed out like candy, but that just means that there will be another Gallifrey story every couple of decades or so and voila. The issue is to eliminate it, completely and credibly. Guess where this is headed:

but then Chibnal came along and seems to have decided the quickest and easiest way to leave his mark on the show was not with good stories, but to go and kick the dust from 50 years of Who which was bothering no one but him it seems,

Moffatt threw in a new lifespan of x number of lives being handed out. In a story that's largely Earth-based and uses cheap stunts like hanging off a helicopter because cool, or whatever, but it was vague enough that it could have been left be. From what I recall, anyhow.

Series 11 had Chibnall trying to tell completely fresh stories, untethered to the albatross of continuity. Had the stories worked, nobody would have complained. A lot of them are just clunky or had ideas poorly grafted on. A couple were solid, but 11 was disappointing. Especially as it starts with memberberries as the Doctor falls to the planet from orbit, a la Tennant. How exciting. Or otherwise.

Then comes 12, with the eventual reveal of "the timeless child". Hokey or not, it does deserve props for trying to take an unexpected and unpredicted way to get around the regeneration issue entirely. Was it needed? Arguably, or arguably not - hardcore fans would want an explanation, casual viewers who tune in to have a giggle and/or listen to it from another room as they do other stuff won't give a jot either way.

But the show created a problem. The GOAT of all problems. Thanks to Robert Holmes. Who, by the mid-70s, had so many cynicism-driven stories that it'd be a greater surprise if he really hadn't written in the limitation as means to force an ultimate ending to the show. HIs 80s-penned stories aren't any less cynicism-driven as well, arguably even more so in ways.


and as we have seen this has now continued with RTD and the War chief because..........

Fanwank?

The War Chief, whom Terrance Dicks did say was not the Master, was likely a possible influence on the evil Time Lord introduced two years later. But why not say that the Master from "The Mind Robber" be the same one and fluff it up that route? Casual and new series-only fans being introduced to classic Who like this won't care or think the incidental music is too on the nose to swallow, which is the one thing many classic series fans will agree with due to how contrived the notion was pushed.


.well only those two can tell you why.

True. They'll probably say something, possibly, after which half a dozen YouTube channels will make retorts to varying extents, probably.
 
Look. You are - of course - allowed to think some plotlines are dumb. Demanding showrunners erase them is pretty silly and egotistical though.

NuWho has pretty much undermined the Looms and the "Doctor is the Other" stuff, but it hasn't gone out of its way to say "no, this never happened, shut up about it". It embraces the diversity of the setting - some Doctors WERE Loomed. Seven DID survive San Francisco to reunite with Ace decades later.

Sam CAN have two timelines.

The Third Doctor COULD have regenerated on Dust.

Nothing in the show has gainsayed any of this, because it doesn't have to.

If you think Hartnell was definitely the First Doctor, then the Timeless Child is a retcon by the TARDIS or some other powerful force to create her own creators. Faction Paradox would approve.
 
The haters have always overreacted to the Timeless Child. The biggest impact it will have on the franchise is opening the door to more appearances by Jo Martin (which would be a good thing, IMO) and allowing the creation of another forgotten Doctor played by a celebrity. That's it, it hardly damages or ruins or even changes anything to the extent some of the crying would have you think.

Bigeneration isn't that bad per se, what I don't approve of is RTD's claim in interviews that some sort of temporal retcon worked it's way back through the Doctor's life resulting in all regenerations becoming bigenerations, as that opens up one hella can of worms. But fortunately that hasn't been reflected onscreen within the show yet and can be ignored.

Seriously, most of the things Doctor Who fandom gets worked up over can be shrugged off and ignored rather than getting the kinds of overreactions they get.
As vociferously as I have been against the Timeless Child, I do actually agree with this sentiment. I have been able to shrug it off and ultimately it hasn't lessened my enjoyment of the show (although other aspects have).

However, I do understand some of the early worries when it first appeared. In those early days, we didn't know what can of worms the TC was potentially opening. Fortunately, they've largely ignored it going forward. The few mentions have been subtle. But we didn't know that in the early days. And I really do like Jo Martin's Doctor. So, that helps!

There are fundamental storytelling reasons why I don't like TC. And, if the show wants to create new lore, it should do so by moving forward, not retconning the past.

I think bigeneration was OK as a one off gimmick to have a multi Doctor story. However, to try to retcon that back to the previous Doctors was ill-conceived. Glad they haven't done more with that. I think a lot of the backlash about that wouldn't have happened without that RTD interview where he described the retroactive nature of it.
 
Just my opinion, but I doubt that Chibnall felt a burning need to resolve Morbius and came up with the Timeless Child storyline. Instead, it seems more likely to me that Chibnall looked back at what Davies and Moffat did, with big ideas like the Time War and the end of Gallifrey, the Metacrisis Doctor, the War Doctor, the Impossible Girl, etc, and decided to do something along those lines too.



Say you're watching "The Image of the Fendahl" or "Spearhead From Space" or "The Eleventh Hour" or... hell, just about anything from Hartnell to Capaldi. Does the existence of the Timeless Child change how any of those stories play out? What difference does it make?

I'm not arguing that the Timeless Child is good or bad. I'm pointing out that, more than 99% of the time, it just doesn't matter.

For me the last 60 years of Who has been very simple, Hartnell was the first doctor and from him spawned 60 years of the franchise, and that was it, simple and straight forward and anything they wanted to add to the future of the show was up for grabs, hell even .5 doctors was fine, but retconning the shows past seems to be the thing now, and by all means they can recon 60 years of the show if they wish, i can't or won't stop them, but i certainly am not obliged to buy into any of it either monetarily or intellectually wise. ;)
 
Just my opinion, but I doubt that Chibnall felt a burning need to resolve Morbius and came up with the Timeless Child storyline. Instead, it seems more likely to me that Chibnall looked back at what Davies and Moffat did, with big ideas like the Time War and the end of Gallifrey, the Metacrisis Doctor, the War Doctor, the Impossible Girl, etc, and decided to do something along those lines too.

Say you're watching "The Image of the Fendahl" or "Spearhead From Space" or "The Eleventh Hour" or... hell, just about anything from Hartnell to Capaldi. Does the existence of the Timeless Child change how any of those stories play out? What difference does it make?

I'm not arguing that the Timeless Child is good or bad. I'm pointing out that, more than 99% of the time, it just doesn't matter.

^^this

Every Doctor has their own continuity that rarely matches up with surrounding incarnations, no matter how often other Doctors' visages appear as memberberries. The show has no real continuity and as the show involves time travel with ramifications mentioned as far back as "The Time Meddler", I don't care to a certain point how things are done as long as it's done well. Heck, Chibnall's take on Gallifrey being destroyed by the Master had the personal angle that was sorely lacking with every other time the planet was destroyed in the show's history. Never cared for the time war stuff, but most people say it the other way around. In either case, I'd rewatch Hartnell's era 100 times more because his stories tone and tempo are more often exciting - caught up in the middle and surviving by the skin of their teeth, something "The Caves of Androzani" also excelled at.
 
In either case, I'd rewatch Hartnell's era 100 times more because his stories tone and tempo are more often exciting - caught up in the middle and surviving by the skin of their teeth, something "The Caves of Androzani" also excelled at.
I think that’s at least partially because in the early Hartnell stories, however brilliant he was, the Doctor was just an old guy stumbling into trouble, so even any perfectly normal historical situation was dangerous. That changed once the series turned him into a Hero — which happened quite early on, and changed the tenor of the series forever.
 
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