What are your Doctor Who hot takes?

[Steve Roby]

Just a few that come to mind immediately:

* The NuWho companions constantly being young women from modern UK is boring and over played

Probably why 13 had a young man, an older man, and, later, a middle-aged man as companions.

* The Time Lords and Galifrey existing is only a positive for the franchise, there is no reason to kill them off when even in Classic Who they barely factored into The Doctor's adventures even when they were at their full power. The Timelords being around don't prevent any type of story, and destroying them again was just the showrunner(s) being petty and shortsighted.

* William Hartnell's Doctor was the first Doctor, there is no "Timeless Child" or "The Other" and the constant attempts at retconning him as not being the literal 1st Doctor is shitty and disrepectful to the character, the actor and the show in general.

William Hartnell era fans: Time Lord? Gallifrey? What on Earth are you talking about? Next you'll be saying the Doctor has two hearts, or he can change into another person, or some such retconning craziness.

 

[kirk55555]

Probably why 13 had a young man, an older man, and, later, a middle-aged man as companions.



William Hartnell era fans: Time Lord? Gallifrey? What on Earth are you talking about? Next you'll be saying the Doctor has two hearts, or he can change into another person, or some such retconning craziness.

Thats adding to the franchise, not retconning. Saying that Hartnell wasn't the first Doctor is a retcon that goes against the entire franchise.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Thats adding to the franchise, not retconning. Saying that Hartnell wasn't the first Doctor is a retcon that goes against the entire franchise.

Except for that one episode with a handful of Doctors never seen before.

 

[Starkers]

Except for that one episode with a handful of Doctors never seen before.

And of course for the first mention of Hartnell being the first Doctor, the original so to speak, you have to wait for the Five Doctors I believe in 1983.

I have issues, oh so many issues, with the Timeless Child, but it doesn't really change anything. As far as the Doctor has any memory of their life, Hartnell was their original incarnation. The person the Doctor is now began with Hartnell. That there was someone else who called themself the Doctor before him is neither here nor there because the Doctor has no recollection of that life.

One of the things that bugs me about the TC is how little it actually changes things. It was trumpeted as a major change to the character but it's just a cheap trick IMO.

The existence of the War Doctor had more implications for the Doctor IMO

 

[Haggis and tatties]

Thats adding to the franchise, not retconning. Saying that Hartnell wasn't the first Doctor is a retcon that goes against the entire franchise.

At this point where they are now spoon feeding viewers on everything and all ambiguity from past shows are being removed, because god forbid you leave the veiwer thinking, i expect some flashback scene of the meddling Monk to appear in some future episode with the sound of the master laugh clearly coming from him mouth.........this it seems is modern who now.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

And of course for the first mention of Hartnell being the first Doctor, the original so to speak, you have to wait for the Five Doctors I believe in 1983.

I have issues, oh so many issues, with the Timeless Child, but it doesn't really change anything.

I could not disagree more, and more strongly. It really does change a lot - for starters, out of the top of my head, regeneration itself is more meaningless after this.

 

[Starkers]

I could not disagree more, and more strongly. It really does change a lot - for starters, out of the top of my head, regeneration itself is more meaningless after this.

Didn't Moffat already do that when the Timelords granted the Doctor a new regeneration cycle? In fact didn't Dicks/Saward/Nation already do this when the Timelords offered the Master a new set of regenerations in The Five Doctors?

Did anyone seriously imagine that the Doctor would reach their 13th incarnation and simply die at the end of it? There was always going to be a get out.

Because if anyone did imagine this I'd like to talk to them about a wonderful opportunity in bridge ownership...

 

[The Wormhole]

The Doctor is never going to die permanently for the simple reason that doing so would effectively end the entire franchise. Therefore regeneration is always guaranteed, and was long before Chibnall introduced the Timeless Child or Moffat brought in the War Doctor.

 

[Starkers]

Was it the Deadly Assassin that introduced the limit?

I suppose it's easy to limit yourself to 13 Doctors when you're only on number 4! Still it was a terrible idea that was always going to be circumvented if the show lasted long enough (which obviously it did)

 

[The Wormhole]

It was indeed Deadly Assassin. I get their thinking somewhat, at least as far as that story goes, they needed to come up with a reason why the Master was facing permanent death with no possibility of regeneration, and creating a regeneration limit fits that need adequately. But yeah, in the eyes of the greater franchise it was a bit of a stupid idea. People usually like to counter that with the argument of "it was the 1970s, they didn't know the show would continue into modern times and we would eventually have to deal with a 13th Doctor" and maybe that's true to an extent. But at the same time, the show had been on the air for fourteen consecutive years at that point and they were on their fourth Doctor, so it had to have occurred to someone that this could eventually become an issue for the show at some point down the road.

Though I suppose the thinking could have been "eh, someone else's problem." And indeed, Robert Holmes, Deadly Assassin's writer was dead by the time the regeneration limit had to be addressed in the show anyway.

 

[Steve Roby]

"I've been renewed, have I? That's it. I've been renewed. It's part of the Tardis. Without it, I couldn't survive."

"Your appearance has changed before, it will change again. That is part of the sentence."

"Indeed. I regenerated and came to Earth, to Tibet."
"Regenerated?"
"Yes. Yes, when a Time Lord's body wears out, he regenerates, becomes new."
"That is why we can live such a long time."
"I see. Well, what about Cho-Je? Is he a Time Lord, too?"
"In a sense. In another sense, he doesn't exist."
"You've lost me."
"Me too, I'm afraid."
"Cho-Je is a projection of my own self."

"All the cells of his body have been devastated by the Metebelis crystals, but you forget, he is a Time Lord. I will give the process a little push and the cells will regenerate. He will become a new man."

"Regenerating? What are you talking about, regenerating? Only Time Lords regenerate. Look, it's awfully nice to see you, Princess Astra --"
"Romana."
"Romana? Ah."
"Ah."
"Shut up, K9. What are you doing in that body?"
"Regenerating. Do you like it?"
"But you can't wear that body."
"I thought it looked very nice on the Princess."
"But you can't go round wearing copies of bodies."
"Why not? We're not going back to Atrios, are we?"
"No."
"Well, then."
"Well then, go and try another one. Go on."
"All right."

"It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for."
"The Watcher."
"He was the Doctor all the time."

That's the kind of consistency in regeneration that we just don't get these days.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

I don't see the problem in the regeneration limit at all, especially as Deadly Assassin was about the Master trying to get another regeneration cycle. It was already made clear that it wasn't an unsolvable problem.

Honestly I'm surprised that the series didn't try to wring more drama out of the limit when it was finally reached. We didn't even know 11 was the last until deep into his his final episode. They could've had three seasons of the Doctor without a safety net.

 

[Starkers]

It was indeed Deadly Assassin. I get their thinking somewhat, at least as far as that story goes, they needed to come up with a reason why the Master was facing permanent death with no possibility of regeneration, and creating a regeneration limit fits that need adequately. But yeah, in the eyes of the greater franchise it was a bit of a stupid idea. People usually like to counter that with the argument of "it was the 1970s, they didn't know the show would continue into modern times and we would eventually have to deal with a 13th Doctor" and maybe that's true to an extent. But at the same time, the show had been on the air for fourteen consecutive years at that point and they were on their fourth Doctor, so it had to have occurred to someone that this could eventually become an issue for the show at some point down the road.

Though I suppose the thinking could have been "eh, someone else's problem." And indeed, Robert Holmes, Deadly Assassin's writer was dead by the time the regeneration limit had to be addressed in the show anyway.

I guess if they did think 4 Doctors in 14 years then that implied they wouldn't reach the limit for, what, 30 years? Did people in 1976 imagine Dr Who would still be a thing in 2006?

 

[Mr Awe]

When I watched Deadly Assassin back then, no, I really didn't think the show would be around for the 13th Doctor. It just seemed so far away that it felt like we'd never run out. The show was a long running show at the time, but, at least to this viewer, it didn't feel like a franchise yet. I'm not sure that idea even existed in relation to TV shows at the time. But, it didn't for me.

It just felt so remote to be a none issue. Something that affected the Master but we'd probably never see affect the Doctor.

Of course, I was only 7 at the time so I'm sure that made 30 years of possible Doctor Who stories feel like an eternity! But, as I continued to watch the show, it continued to be a non-issue until around McCoy when it hits you that you're halfway there! Even then it felt you had 20 more years or so.

So, it just was never a pressing issue during the Classic era.

 

[kirk55555]

Except for that one episode with a handful of Doctors never seen before.

Except there was nothing to say those were former Doctors, regardless of the thoughts of the people making the episode. Morbius was a Timelord, and he was having a mental battle with The Doctor. I literally always thought that those were images of pre-brain in a jar Morbius until hearing about the background stuff, and it makes way more sense for that to be the case.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Except there was nothing to say those were former Doctors, regardless of the thoughts of the people making the episode. Morbius was a Timelord, and he was having a mental battle with The Doctor. I literally always thought that those were images of pre-brain in a jar Morbius until hearing about the background stuff, and it makes way more sense for that to be the case.

Thoughts of the people who made the episode vs your thoughts. Such a hard choice....

 

[FredH]

Though I suppose the thinking could have been "eh, someone else's problem."

Of course. And they would certainly have understood that should the show last long enough to run through the 13th life, coming up with an excuse for more would be the easiest thing in the world for whoever was writing it then. And so it was.

EDIT: Besides which, seems to me that nothing, not even the Timeless Child, would ever be more of a shocking retcon than the first (and at the time unexplained) change of William Hartnell into Patrick Troughton. Everything since has just been details.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

Thoughts of the people who made the episode vs your thoughts. Such a hard choice....

It doesn't matter what the intent was, it only matters what made it to screen. When I saw that episode it never occurred to me that those were the Doctor's faces, because I know the Doctor's faces.

 

[Nerys Myk]

It doesn't matter what the intent was, it only matters what made it to screen. When I saw that episode it never occurred to me that those were the Doctor's faces, because I know the Doctor's faces.

Valid. But in 1976 what would people think?

 

[David cgc]

That's the kind of consistency in regeneration that we just don't get these days.

I remember there was an article someone talked about here a long time ago that predated “The Five Doctors” from a guidebook or fan magazine or something talking about the Doctor’s changing faces which concluded the Doctor’s first regeneration was third-to-fourth for the purpose of the 13-body limit, with his “renewal” being a separate process that made him younger, as was his enforced “change of appearance.”

Honestly I'm surprised that the series didn't try to wring more drama out of the limit when it was finally reached. We didn't even know 11 was the last until deep into his his final episode. They could've had three seasons of the Doctor without a safety net.

That seems to go into how up-in-the-air production was with the whole greater 50th anniversary project, with Moffatt deciding pretty last-minute that if he counted the “Journey’s End” regeneration, he could get the whole thing over with right then. My guess would be Moffatt didn’t think that the angst of the Doctor risking death (to a greater extent than usual, there’s always a little chance of them being killed so dead they don’t regenerate) could go two or three seasons without getting old, and then would feel anticlimactic when he somehow regenerated anyway.

I don’t believe it’s been dramatized, but I think it’s interesting that the resulting implication is that the Doctor himself didn’t know that one counted, so there was a time on Trenzelore when he fully expected to regenerate and nothing happened. The short story collection about his time on Trenzelore which didn’t tell that story, but did say his limp was because he’d lost a leg in a nonspecific encounter, which I assume would’ve been when he realized he was out of extra lives.